Is This a Condemned Modernist Statement?
(01-27-2012, 04:55 PM)drummerboy Wrote: This is why FE needs a Grand Inquisitor.  He could have declared this anathema immediately!

This is a wonderful idea!!

(01-31-2012, 12:02 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: How did we go from THIS:

"The unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation" (Council of Florence, Cantate Domino: Denz. 714).

"A schismatic flatters himself falsely if he asserts that he, too, has been washed in the waters of regeneration.  Indeed Augustine would reply to such a man: 'The branch has the same form when it has been cut off from the vine; but of what profit for it is the form, if it does not live from the root?'" (Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, n. 13).

"Whoever eats of the lamb and is not a member of the Church, has profaned;" (St. Jerome, Ep. XV to Damasus; quoted by Pope Pius IX in Amantissimus, n. 3).

The Catholic Church "alone supplies those means of salvation which accord with the ordinary counsels of Providence" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, n. 9.7).

"Finally, while by [the Holy Spirit's] grace He provides for the continual growth of the Church, He yet refuses to dwell through sanctifying grace in those members that are wholly severed from the Body... [non-Catholics] still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi, nn. 57, 103).

"From this it follows also that they cannot promise themselves any of the graces and fruits of the perpetual sacrifice and of the sacraments which, although they are sacrilegiously administered, are nonetheless valid and serve in some measure that form and appearance of piety which St. Paul mentions (I Cor. XIII: 3) and which St. Augustine speaks of at greater length: 'The form of the branch,' says the latter with great precision, 'may still be visible, even apart from the vine, but the invisible life of the root can be preserved only in union with the stock.  That is why the corporal sacraments, which some keep and use outside the unity of Christ, can preserve the appearance of piety.  But the invisible and spiritual virtue of true piety cannot abide there any more than feeling can remain in an amputated member' (Serm. LXXI, in Matth., 32).  But since they no longer have the sacraments, with the exception of baptism, which they confer, so it is said, without ceremonies on children; a fruitful baptism for the latter, provided that once the age of reason is reached they do not embrace the schism; but deadly for those who administer it, for in conferring it they willfully act in schism" (Pope Leo XIII, Eximia Nos lætitia, 19 July 1893).


Outside the Church can be found "the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit ... The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion.  These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community.  These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation. ... For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using [false sects] as means of salvation ... Hence, through the celebration of the Holy Eucharist in each of these [schismatic] churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature" (Second Vatican Council, Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 3, 15).


You should read what the pre-Vatican II theology manuals had to say about the possibility of the Eastern Schismatics (nevermind Protestants) producing fruit... it was the exact opposite of what the churchmen teach today.

Producing fruit and possessing some truth are not the same.  The severed branch is not capable of producing more fruit but it retains qualities of the original tree (until it rots and decomposes).  I think this retention of original quality is what is being hinted at.

The Church seems to have swung to one extreme to the other. It used to attack other beliefs and now it seems to pander to them.  The Church needs to find some middle ground here.  She needs to go back to strongly  reminding other of the grave danger their soul is in but she also needs to be chartable about it. It is hard to convert souls when your being what others precieve as "mean spirited".

What we have being seeing over the last 50 years or so is the pendulum swinging to far to one side and VII is what pushed the pendulum so far over.

What the Church needs is a Syllabus of Errors solely dedicated to correctly interpreting VII in the light of tradition.

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