The real St. Francis of Assisi
#41
(01-30-2012, 09:33 PM)knittycat Wrote: In my view it seems he was alluding to the feminine way of handling things. Talking things out, acceptance, tolerance, speaking always of love and gentle things. These things aren't bad in and of themselves, but with no masculine message counterbalancing these ideas, we have been being tolerant and accepting of things we shouldn't be tolerant of. Always 'love one another' and no 'preach unto all nations' leaves an anemic and weak Church.

I understand and agree. I also liked his analogy of the dollar bill and the four quarters, being equal but different. Believe it or not, I don't disagree with everything he says LOL I want to find that "masculinity series" so I can watch it again, if I can do so without blowing my top. I think this one here about St. Francis is rather ridiculous. He points out the "feminized" St. Francis. He could have said hippie or tree-hugger.. but he dismisses it as "feminine." There are many men who are hippies.  And there are many women who are not.
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#42
(01-30-2012, 09:45 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: He could have said hippie or tree-hugger.. but he dismisses it as "feminine." There are many men who are hippies.  And there are many women who are not.

Men who are "hippies" are feminised to a perverted degree.

Women who aren't hippies can simply be normal, although a few can fall on the other extreme.
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#43
(01-30-2012, 09:43 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 09:14 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: If we had a “masculinized” church – what would it look like? 1) Obviously it wouldn't have women lectors, altar girls, females in the choir, or women leading parish council, right? 2) It wouldn't have kumbaya singing, hand-holding clergy.

1) Certainly. In fact, female lectors and altar girls are anti-scriptural practices that should be loathed by all pious Christian women.

2) Exactly, although these things can also be described as "gay," which is another consequence of liberalism.

Of course, a huge part of this problem is due to the men themselves: men of the hierarchy who got corrupted and yielded to liberalism and political correctness; and men of the laity whose faith was so weak that they simply stopped caring for the Church once she was run over by the revolution.

As always, the solution rests with those willing to stick up for the faith: men who will strive to put the Church back on track and women who will encourage them in that godly role.

Unfortunately the people who are willing to stick up for the faith do not agree on how to put the Church back on track.  I agree with you about getting rid of women lectors, altar girls and kumbaya.  I want to get rid of the Novus Ordo altogether.  But we have very different ideas about how to get to that point.    
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#44
(01-30-2012, 09:47 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Men who are "hippies" are feminised to a perverted degree.

But why, Vetus? Is it because they grow their hair long? Is it because they want a more organic life? So do monks.

Is it their liberal politics? Again, I must ask why is this a feminine trait? I know an amazing number of conservative women.
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#45
(01-30-2012, 09:14 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I have a question for you all who say that the "feminization" of the church is sickening. 
If we had a “masculinized” church – what would it look like? Obviously it wouldn't have women lectors, altar girls, females in the choir, or women leading parish council, right?

This is what we have among the traddiest traditional Catholics. An overemphasis on reason and logic at the expense of everything else, and a downgrading of emotions (and by extension, charity, which doesn't exist for some people.) We have endless numbers of armchair theologians who are their own ultimate authority because they've come to worship their own intellects instead of loving God, and who either create more in-fighting and subfactions than protestants, or who come across a problem in the Faith they can't solve with their own giant brains, so they decide the Church is wrong and leave.

Who stood by Our Lord's side during the passion? Oh yeah--women did, because they were loyal and compassionate instead of being scandalized by what looked (to the apostles) like He had lost the battle.

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense. It's totally asinine for a moron in a suit to try to make St. Francis look like an American version of a manly man. St. Francis was ITALIAN. He was a TROUBADOR. He had an artistic temperment--how manly is that by Voris' standards? My guess is not very. St. Francis was so emotional and tempermental that he rejected his father's authority (what was that? patriarchy?) by taking all his clothes off and walking out of a courtroom where he was being sued. And then he became a saint because he devoted himself to loving God passionately because that's what he was--passionate and emotional. And how very convenient that Voris doesn't mention that St. Francis was a failed knight, either. What a joke.
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#46
(01-30-2012, 10:04 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:   I'm sick and tired of this nonsense. It's totally asinine for a moron in a suit to try to make St. Francis look like an American version of a manly man. St. Francis was ITALIAN. He was a TROUBADOR. He had an artistic temperment--how manly is that by Voris' standards? My guess is not very. St. Francis was so emotional and tempermental that he rejected his father's authority (what was that? patriarchy?) by taking all his clothes of and walking out of a courtroom where he was being sued. And then he became a saint because he devoted himself to loving God passionately because that's what he was--passionate and emotional. And how very convenient that Voris doesn't mention that St. Francis was a failed knight, either. What a joke.


YES!!!! Thanks for chiming in, lola.  Applause
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#47
(01-30-2012, 09:53 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 09:47 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Men who are "hippies" are feminised to a perverted degree.

But why, Vetus? Is it because they grow their hair long? Is it because they want a more organic life? So do monks.

Is it their liberal politics? Again, I must ask why is this a feminine trait? I know an amazing number of conservative women.

The adjective "feminine" is used to describe traits like sensitivity, gentleness, warmth, acceptance, etc. You're interpreting it as a jab against the female gender itself but that's not the point, neither Voris's or mine.

Liberalism, which the hippies were the sons and daughters of, can be analogically considered "feminine" because at its core it's all about non-confrontation, accomodation, non-violence and, philosophically, the subjectivity of truth. Not that, as as general rule, women don't have spine and principles: there are many women with character out there and I believe that by their own nature they're morally more conservative than men, but that the traits associated with the liberal ideology can be analogically described as feminine.
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#48
(01-30-2012, 10:04 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 09:14 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I have a question for you all who say that the "feminization" of the church is sickening. 
If we had a “masculinized” church – what would it look like? Obviously it wouldn't have women lectors, altar girls, females in the choir, or women leading parish council, right?

This is what we have among the traddiest traditional Catholics. An overemphasis on reason and logic at the expense of everything else, and a downgrading of emotions (and by extension, charity, which doesn't exist for some people.) We have endless numbers of armchair theologians who are their own ultimate authority because they've come to worship their own intellects instead of loving God, and who either create more in-fighting and subfactions than protestants, or who come across a problem in the Faith they can't solve with their own giant brains, so they decide the Church is wrong and leave.

Who stood by Our Lord's side during the passion? Oh yeah--women did, because they were loyal and compassionate instead of being scandalized by what looked (to the apostles) like He had lost the battle.

I'm sick and tired of this nonsense. It's totally asinine for a moron in a suit to try to make St. Francis look like an American version of a manly man. St. Francis was ITALIAN. He was a TROUBADOR. He had an artistic temperment--how manly is that by Voris' standards? My guess is not very. St. Francis was so emotional and tempermental that he rejected his father's authority (what was that? patriarchy?) by taking all his clothes off and walking out of a courtroom where he was being sued. And then he became a saint because he devoted himself to loving God passionately because that's what he was--passionate and emotional. And how very convenient that Voris doesn't mention that St. Francis was a failed knight, either. What a joke.

+1
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#49
(01-30-2012, 10:09 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The adjective "feminine" is used to describe traits like sensitivity, gentleness, warmth, acceptance, etc. You're interpreting it as a jab against the female gender itself but that's not the point, neither Voris's or mine.

I'm confused as to what his point is then.. I don't think those traits (sensitivity, gentleness, warmth, acceptance) are bad at all, but Voris seems to think they are. I'm assuming he doesn't dislike women, but he seems to dislike our traits. He uses terms like “the cult of the feminine.” The church is "femininized" and that makes it “weak.” With all the talk of "balance" on this thread -- Voris doesn't seem to think the Church needs that.

As for St. Francis, lola hit the nail on the head about his temperament and passion. Just because a person (male or female) is emotional, does not mean they don't use their reason. Francis was Italian, medieval, and a poet at heart. And he was orthodox in his Catholic views. That's all. But Voris turns it into a gender battle... again.
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#50
(01-30-2012, 09:29 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 09:08 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: I know this was directed to Vetus but, I used to love St Francis and then got really turned off by the modern portrayals. It took reading The Little Flowers of St Francis and a few other books to get me back into him. Now he is one of my favorites again. A nun recommended to me to watch Brother Sun Sister Moon and it was a huge turn off. Kept me away from anything Franciscan for years. And then all the other crud. I was actually  told by a Priest that St Francis was the first feminist of the Church and that he allowed women to celebrate Mass. No doubt this would have surprised the Poor Clares. Crazy!

That kind of stuff drives me crazy.  I had the same reaction to the movie you did. And I'm in the middle of reading Little Flowers right now.  And  I have the Baronius Press Classics edition which combines it with St. Bonaventure's Life of St. Francis.  There's a bit in the preface that reminds me of this thread.  It's about "radically falsifying the life and spirituality of St. Francis":
Quote:The personality and spirituality of St. Francis is made to seem in some way contrary to that of the "institutional" Church, a figure anticipating the position of the early Protestants Reformers, or one without any basis in dogma, an anti-intellectual romanticism based solely on the spiritual experience.  The life by St. Bonaventure was especially aimed at correcting these radical misinterpretations of St. Francis' life.

I'm not sure why it gets to me so much.  It is just like so many other things twisted and defiled by modernism. I should be used to it, but I am enraged over them stealing St. Francis.


A question for everybody:  How do you think of Franciscan spirituality?

Yep it was the Book by st Bonaventure that helped me too. Speaking about being a precursor to the protestants I remember seeing one movie about him (I cant remember which) but he was giving some big spiel about how the Mass and stuff should be in "the language of the people".
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