The real St. Francis of Assisi
#51
(01-30-2012, 10:04 PM)Iolanthe Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 09:14 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I have a question for you all who say that the "feminization" of the church is sickening. 
If we had a “masculinized” church – what would it look like? Obviously it wouldn't have women lectors, altar girls, females in the choir, or women leading parish council, right?

This is what we have among the traddiest traditional Catholics. An overemphasis on reason and logic at the expense of everything else, and a downgrading of emotions (and by extension, charity, which doesn't exist for some people.) We have endless numbers of armchair theologians who are their own ultimate authority because they've come to worship their own intellects instead of loving God, and who either create more in-fighting and subfactions than protestants, or who come across a problem in the Faith they can't solve with their own giant brains, so they decide the Church is wrong and leave.

Who stood by Our Lord's side during the passion? Oh yeah--women did, because they were loyal and compassionate instead of being scandalized by what looked (to the apostles) like He had lost the battle.

Charity is not an emotion.  Being nice to people only when one feels like it is practically the opposite of charity.  Charity is making a principled decision to treat people as God wishes them treated.  Reason is supposed to be in control over emotion.  Out of control emotion almost invariably leads to sin.  (Or maybe I'm the only one it works for like that.)

It was not just women at the cross.  St. John was there too.  
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#52
(01-30-2012, 09:29 PM)JayneK Wrote: A question for everybody:  How do you think of Franciscan spirituality?

I think of it as a very simple form of spirituality but, not in a bad way. One that seeks to follow Christs life and teachings as closely as possible even to the extent of "preaching the gospel to all creatures" thats why we have the stories of St Francis and the animals. Also it seems to me to be very humble but not weak like many want us to believe now days. I just see it as living a good Catholic life while paying attention to all Gods creatures. I think the quote " Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words" sums it all up nicely.
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#53
(01-30-2012, 10:43 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: He was giving some big spiel about how the Mass and stuff should be in "the language of the people".

Saint Francis did radically change the mass...but the result was the TLM!  

During Saint Francis' time the Gallican Rite was dominant in Western Europe, and what we would call the TLM was normally only celebrated in Rome by the Pope on the feast of Saint Peter.  

The Gallican Rite's missal was so lengthy that it had to be contained in several volumes, most unideal for Friars who wished to travel and keep their luggage light.  The TLM missal could be contained in one volume and Saint Francis was attracted to it because he considered it the oldest liturgy of the Church.  Francis received permission from the Pope to copy the missal from one of only three copies in existence and to require his friars to celebrate this form of the mass (if they were priests).  The popularity of the Franciscans led to the spread of the TLM throughout the Church (although in the process it picked up some Gallican features).  
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#54
(01-30-2012, 10:36 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 10:09 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The adjective "feminine" is used to describe traits like sensitivity, gentleness, warmth, acceptance, etc. You're interpreting it as a jab against the female gender itself but that's not the point, neither Voris's or mine.

I'm confused as to what his point is then.. I don't think those traits (sensitivity, gentleness, warmth, acceptance) are bad at all, but Voris seems to think they are. I'm assuming he doesn't dislike women, but he seems to dislike our traits. He uses terms like “the cult of the feminine.” The church is "femininized" and that makes it “weak.” With all the talk of "balance" on this thread -- Voris doesn't seem to think the Church needs that.

I doubt he thinks there should be no sensitivity and gentleness at all.  But there is something very wrong when that is all there is.  The Church is desperately lacking masculine qualities.  

(01-30-2012, 10:36 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: As for St. Francis, lola hit the nail on the head about his temperament and passion. Just because a person (male or female) is emotional, does not mean they don't use their reason. Francis was Italian, medieval, and a poet at heart. And he was orthodox in his Catholic views. That's all. But Voris turns it into a gender battle... again.

It has nothing to do with a gender battle.  Vetus explained it really well.  
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#55
(01-30-2012, 09:33 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 09:27 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: I cant really speak to Voris I take no man seriously over 12 with a Justin Bieber haircut. So I have never really watched him. As to the women and Adoration. I used to go to adoration every week and it was a mix of men and women. Now where I live the Local NO Church doesn't allow adoration because the Woman in charge of "worship ministry" says that it is improper. If we had adoration I would go. I always went at my old parish. Even one time I turned down watching a football game to go so yeah. My problem is this. Women controlling EVERYTHING. At the local NO Church and both of the ones in my previous town. Women were parish directors, liturgical directors, in charge of the music. I one time asked the Priest if he could include the Ave Maria (the song) during the feast of the Immaculate Conception and his reply "I would love too but Dorthy hates that song" Dorthy was in charge of "music ministry" and "social justice ministry" There were literally NO men in charge of anything and even the Priest had to ask a "ministry" headed by a woman permission to do anything.

This would tick me off too. Also, the "inclusive language" in our music, scripture readings and psalms makes me want to pull out my hair!

Yes this is the other thing I have noticed from time to time. Priests using inclusive language when referring to God especially when it is just done to score PC points really ticks me off. In fact a few years back I was visiting some relatives on the NO date of the Feast of Christ the King and the towns Parish changed it to The Feast of Christ the Savior. Evidently the Bishop actually heard about that and the Priest got into trouble. I heard a homily once in a Church in L.A. and the Priest said that if only Jesus had been born a woman there would be no sexism. Then he apologized for the Catholic Churches Racism and Sexism. These are the things I think of when I think of the "immunization" of the Church
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#56
(01-30-2012, 10:54 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 10:43 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: He was giving some big spiel about how the Mass and stuff should be in "the language of the people".

Saint Francis did radically change the mass...but the result was the TLM!  

During Saint Francis' time the Gallican Rite was dominant in Western Europe, and what we would call the TLM was normally only celebrated in Rome by the Pope on the feast of Saint Peter.  

The Gallican Rite's missal was so lengthy that it had to be contained in several volumes, most unideal for Friars who wished to travel and keep their luggage light.  The TLM missal could be contained in one volume and Saint Francis was attracted to it because he considered it the oldest liturgy of the Church.  Francis received permission from the Pope to copy the missal from one of only three copies in existence and to require his friars to celebrate this form of the mass (if they were priests).  The popularity of the Franciscans led to the spread of the TLM throughout the Church (although in the process it picked up some Gallican features).  

Right but the movie made him out to be a Vatican II type liturgy destroyer. Certainly not a fan of the TLM.
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#57
(01-30-2012, 10:43 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: Yep it was the Book by st Bonaventure that helped me too. Speaking about being a precursor to the protestants I remember seeing one movie about him (I cant remember which) but he was giving some big spiel about how the Mass and stuff should be in "the language of the people".

I don't think there are any movies about St. Francis that get things right.  
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#58
(01-30-2012, 10:49 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 09:29 PM)JayneK Wrote: A question for everybody:  How do you think of Franciscan spirituality?

I think of it as a very simple form of spirituality but, not in a bad way. One that seeks to follow Christs life and teachings as closely as possible even to the extent of "preaching the gospel to all creatures" thats why we have the stories of St Francis and the animals. Also it seems to me to be very humble but not weak like many want us to believe now days. I just see it as living a good Catholic life while paying attention to all Gods creatures. I think the quote " Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words" sums it all up nicely.

It's clear you have given this some thought.  I think you are right on about humility being very misunderstood.
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#59
(01-30-2012, 10:36 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(01-30-2012, 10:09 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The adjective "feminine" is used to describe traits like sensitivity, gentleness, warmth, acceptance, etc. You're interpreting it as a jab against the female gender itself but that's not the point, neither Voris's or mine.

I'm confused as to what his point is then.. I don't think those traits (sensitivity, gentleness, warmth, acceptance) are bad at all, but Voris seems to think they are. I'm assuming he doesn't dislike women, but he seems to dislike our traits. He uses terms like “the cult of the feminine.” The church is "femininized" and that makes it “weak.” With all the talk of "balance" on this thread -- Voris doesn't seem to think the Church needs that.

The traits are not bad in themselves. They're bad when they are prevalent at the expense of the others, which is the case in the modern Church. The Church is indeed our mother and, as any caring mother, she accepts her children in their weakness as sinners. However, the Church also inebriates our hearts and souls with the boldness and strength of the gospel, that proceeds from our Father, God, and is manifested by the piercing light of its doctrine, its intellectual rigour, its drawing mysticism, its capacity to reform men's hearts and to turn society upside down, its fruits of martyrdom and knighthood, etc.

I believe that what Voris laments is the lack of these masculine traits in the modern Church. While he may err in excess or defect here and there with his rhetoric and swirling pencil, he's trying to address an inescapable reality: the liberal Church can only produce perishable fruits. He only has to make the final leap and see Vatican II as the source of the problem.  This new church that sprang from the council can be described as "feminine" because it lacks decisive masculine qualities. She's infested by gay and effeminate clerics that can only preach an effeminate Christ, she has a gospel that produces no vocations and no spiritual renewal, a doctrine so docile that leaves non-Catholics justified in their errors in the name of "love" and "acceptance," and parishes run by women who, although well-meaning, disrupt the natural order that God intended for His Church, etc.

So, to sum it up: it's not that "feminine" is bad and "masculine" is good. It's that only feminine is bad and no masculine is no good.

Quote:As for St. Francis, lola hit the nail on the head about his temperament and passion. Just because a person (male or female) is emotional, does not mean they don't use their reason. Francis was Italian, medieval, and a poet at heart. And he was orthodox in his Catholic views. That's all. But Voris turns it into a gender battle... again.

As I said before, I'm not exactly a big fan of St. Francis but it's true that he's been ridiculously protrayed as a hippie by the modern Church and that needs to be corrected.
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#60
(01-30-2012, 11:08 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The traits are not bad in themselves. They're bad when they are prevalent at the expense of the others, which is the case in the modern Church. The Church is indeed our mother and, as any caring mother, she accepts her children in their weakness as sinners. However, the Church also inebriates our hearts and souls with the boldness and strength of the gospel, that proceeds from our Father, God, and is manifested by the piercing light of its doctrine, its intellectual rigour, its drawing mysticism, its capacity to reform men's hearts and to turn society upside down, its fruits of martyrdom and knighthood, etc.

I believe that what Voris laments is the lack of these masculine traits in the modern Church. While he may err in excess or defect here and there with his rhetoric and swirling pencil, he's trying to address an inescapable reality: the liberal Church can only produce perishable fruits. He only has to make the final leap and see Vatican II as the source of the problem.  This new church that sprang from the council can be described as "feminine" because it lacks decisive masculine qualities. She's infested by gay and effeminate clerics that can only preach an effeminate Christ, she has a gospel that produces no vocations and no spiritual renewal, a doctrine so docile that leaves non-Catholics justified in their errors in the name of "love" and "acceptance," and parishes run by women who, although well-meaning, disrupt the natural order that God intended for His Church, etc.

So, to sum it up: it's not that "feminine" is bad and "masculine" is good. It's that only feminine is bad and no masculine is no good.

This is really good.  (I am glad you are back, posting gems like this.) I would change the chain of causality a bit, though.  It was liberal elements in the Church which infected Vatican II which, in turn, further strengthened the liberal elements.  The problem did not start at the Council.  Modernism had been making inroads for many decades before it.
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