The real St. Francis of Assisi
#31
I have a question for you all who say that the "feminization" of the church is sickening. 

If we had a “masculinized” church – what would it look like? Obviously it wouldn't have women lectors, altar girls, females in the choir, or women leading parish council, right? It wouldn't have kumbaya singing, hand-holding clergy. I wasn't sure if Voris, in his series on "masculinity", was bemoaning the lack of manly/male presence on the parish level - or some other level.

Now the Apostles were evangelists and missioners, and the Church Fathers were theologians and apologists, and those roles (preaching, theology, canon law, apologetics) are still dominated by men. Pope, bishops, priests and deacons are still men. Of course, as I was saying earlier, they are PASTORS, not “bloodthirsty” “combative” “aggressive” “conquering” warriors – words that Voris used in his series, while flashing scenes of Crusaders in the background, as if this is the epitome of Catholic manhood. Instead he should have flashed scenes of Jesuit missioners being tortured for the faith. Or St. Ignatius being led to the lions at 80 years of age, frail as he was. But Voris won't include martyrs in his flashbacks, for there were just as many women who shared that victory.

But let's assume Voris is bemoaning the “feminization” of parish life. Pardon my bluntness, but how much testosterone do you need to sign up for Eucharistic adoration? Last fall we had a weekend for 40 Hours Devotion and most of the names on the list were female, just a few males. If spending an hour with Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament is too “girly” for the men in our parish, then they can keep manning the beer booth at the festival for all I care. I know that the presence of women is sometimes off-putting to men, but it doesn't keep them away from the soccer games and the Monte Carlo nights, where there are just as many moms as there are dads.

The problem we have in the Church today stems from various things... Feminism is part of it. But "the feminine" is not. Please tell me when Holy MOTHER Church was ever “bloodthirsty” and all-muscle? Voris sounds like he wants to “Islam-ize” Catholicism. “Real Catholic Men” aren't intimidated by women!
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#32
SCG, it seems you are confusing masculine for men and feminine for woman. That is not what he was talking about.

Also, Voris never used 'bloodthirsty'.
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#33
(01-30-2012, 09:21 PM)knittycat Wrote: SCG, it seems you are confusing masculine for men and feminine for woman. That is not what he was talking about.

Also, Voris never used 'bloodthirsty'.

I am sure he used "bloodthirsty" in part 3.. but I can't find the videos online anymore. What does he mean by the "de-masculinization" of the Faith, in your view?
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#34
I cant really speak to Voris I take no man seriously over 12 with a Justin Bieber haircut. So I have never really watched him. As to the women and Adoration. I used to go to adoration every week and it was a mix of men and women. Now where I live the Local NO Church doesn't allow adoration because the Woman in charge of "worship ministry" says that it is improper. If we had adoration I would go. I always went at my old parish. Even one time I turned down watching a football game to go so yeah. My problem is this. Women controlling EVERYTHING. At the local NO Church and both of the ones in my previous town. Women were parish directors, liturgical directors, in charge of the music. I one time asked the Priest if he could include the Ave Maria (the song) during the feast of the Immaculate Conception and his reply "I would love too but Dorthy hates that song" Dorthy was in charge of "music ministry" and "social justice ministry" There were literally NO men in charge of anything and even the Priest had to ask a "ministry" headed by a woman permission to do anything.
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#35
(01-30-2012, 09:08 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: I know this was directed to Vetus but, I used to love St Francis and then got really turned off by the modern portrayals. It took reading The Little Flowers of St Francis and a few other books to get me back into him. Now he is one of my favorites again. A nun recommended to me to watch Brother Sun Sister Moon and it was a huge turn off. Kept me away from anything Franciscan for years. And then all the other crud. I was actually  told by a Priest that St Francis was the first feminist of the Church and that he allowed women to celebrate Mass. No doubt this would have surprised the Poor Clares. :crazy:

That kind of stuff drives me crazy.  I had the same reaction to the movie you did. And I'm in the middle of reading Little Flowers right now.  And  I have the Baronius Press Classics edition which combines it with St. Bonaventure's Life of St. Francis.  There's a bit in the preface that reminds me of this thread.  It's about "radically falsifying the life and spirituality of St. Francis":
Quote:The personality and spirituality of St. Francis is made to seem in some way contrary to that of the "institutional" Church, a figure anticipating the position of the early Protestants Reformers, or one without any basis in dogma, an anti-intellectual romanticism based solely on the spiritual experience.  The life by St. Bonaventure was especially aimed at correcting these radical misinterpretations of St. Francis' life.

I'm not sure why it gets to me so much.  It is just like so many other things twisted and defiled by modernism. I should be used to it, but I am enraged over them stealing St. Francis.


A question for everybody:  How do you think of Franciscan spirituality?
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#36
In my view it seems he was alluding to the feminine way of handling things. Talking things out, acceptance, tolerance, speaking always of love and gentle things. These things aren't bad in and of themselves, but with no masculine message counterbalancing these ideas, we have been being tolerant and accepting of things we shouldn't be tolerant of. Always 'love one another' and no 'preach unto all nations' leaves an anemic and weak Church.
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#37
(01-30-2012, 09:27 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: I cant really speak to Voris I take no man seriously over 12 with a Justin Bieber haircut. So I have never really watched him. As to the women and Adoration. I used to go to adoration every week and it was a mix of men and women. Now where I live the Local NO Church doesn't allow adoration because the Woman in charge of "worship ministry" says that it is improper. If we had adoration I would go. I always went at my old parish. Even one time I turned down watching a football game to go so yeah. My problem is this. Women controlling EVERYTHING. At the local NO Church and both of the ones in my previous town. Women were parish directors, liturgical directors, in charge of the music. I one time asked the Priest if he could include the Ave Maria (the song) during the feast of the Immaculate Conception and his reply "I would love too but Dorthy hates that song" Dorthy was in charge of "music ministry" and "social justice ministry" There were literally NO men in charge of anything and even the Priest had to ask a "ministry" headed by a woman permission to do anything.

This would tick me off too. Also, the "inclusive language" in our music, scripture readings and psalms makes me want to pull out my hair! Maybe the best reaction is for men to take the initiative and become active in the spiritual aspects of parish life, so that other men will follow their lead. Voris said something about "all the women in Bible studies and prayer groups." Well, men can form their own prayer groups and Bible studies.. We have a men's group at our parish. If that is frowned on in other parishes, then let them start one for men and women. If they get their male friends to join them, they'll have more men than women.
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#38
(01-30-2012, 09:14 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I have a question for you all who say that the "feminization" of the church is sickening. 

If we had a “masculinized” church – what would it look like? Obviously it wouldn't have women lectors, altar girls, females in the choir, or women leading parish council, right? It wouldn't have kumbaya singing, hand-holding clergy. I wasn't sure if Voris, in his series on "masculinity", was bemoaning the lack of manly/male presence on the parish level - or some other level.

I don't think the Church should be masculinized or feminized.  The masculine and feminine elements need to be in balance.  Each needs to be in their right place.   A masculinized Church would be the opposite of what we have now - women pushed out from their proper role and feminine qualities devalued. The Church needs to be more masculine in relation to where she is now, because she is all out of balance.
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#39
(01-30-2012, 09:33 PM)knittycat Wrote: In my view it seems he was alluding to the feminine way of handling things. Talking things out, acceptance, tolerance, speaking always of love and gentle things. These things aren't bad in and of themselves, but with no masculine message counterbalancing these ideas, we have been being tolerant and accepting of things we shouldn't be tolerant of. Always 'love one another' and no 'preach unto all nations' leaves an anemic and weak Church.

I wrote my post before seeing this.  It looks like we are thinking along similar lines.
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#40
(01-30-2012, 09:14 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: If we had a “masculinized” church – what would it look like? 1) Obviously it wouldn't have women lectors, altar girls, females in the choir, or women leading parish council, right? 2) It wouldn't have kumbaya singing, hand-holding clergy.

1) Certainly. In fact, female lectors and altar girls are anti-scriptural practices that should be loathed by all pious Christian women.

2) Exactly, although these things can also be described as "gay," which is another consequence of liberalism.

Of course, a huge part of this problem is due to the men themselves: men of the hierarchy who got corrupted and yielded to liberalism and political correctness; and men of the laity whose faith was so weak that they simply stopped caring for the Church once she was run over by the revolution.

As always, the solution rests with those willing to stick up for the faith: men who will strive to put the Church back on track and women who will encourage them in that godly role.
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