WHO do you blame more for the post-Vatican II issues - John XXIII or Paul VI?
#31
Pius XII was very old and very very ill for the last few years of his papacy.  Malachi Martin described him as "psychologically broken-down." 
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#32
(01-31-2012, 09:09 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-31-2012, 08:58 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote:
(01-31-2012, 08:48 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Pius XII allowed Bugnini to revise Holy Week.

You know as much as I love Pius XII. I'll never understand this. I mean he wrote a whole encyclicle against doodeling with the sacraments then he allowed that. What gives?

He was a weak sinner.

Well yeah but aren't we all?
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#33
(01-31-2012, 09:11 PM)Gerard Wrote: Pius XII was very old and very very ill for the last few years of his papacy.  Malachi Martin described him as "psychologically broken-down." 

Hmm... want what was meant by that?
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#34
(01-31-2012, 09:12 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote:
(01-31-2012, 09:09 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(01-31-2012, 08:58 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote:
(01-31-2012, 08:48 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Pius XII allowed Bugnini to revise Holy Week.

You know as much as I love Pius XII. I'll never understand this. I mean he wrote a whole encyclicle against doodeling with the sacraments then he allowed that. What gives?

He was a weak sinner.

Well yeah but aren't we all?

Yes, but sometimes weakness gets the better of you.

Who, among us, has never misjudged a situation, changed his mind or sinned by negligence?
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#35
Probably that he allowed a number of things to happen that in his more vigorous days he would have prevented.
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#36
(01-31-2012, 08:58 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote:
(01-31-2012, 08:48 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Pius XII allowed Bugnini to revise Holy Week.

You know as much as I love Pius XII. I'll never understand this. I mean he wrote a whole encyclicle against doodeling with the sacraments then he allowed that. What gives?

I understood Mediator Dei to be clearly stating that liturgy can and should change, but only the pope has the authority to make such changes, not anyone else.  Take this passage, for example:
Quote:49. From time immemorial the ecclesiastical hierarchy has exercised this right in matters liturgical. It has organized and regulated divine worship, enriching it constantly with new splendor and beauty, to the glory of God and the spiritual profit of Christians. What is more, it has not been slow - keeping the substance of the Mass and sacraments carefully intact - to modify what it deemed not altogether fitting, and to add what appeared more likely to increase the honor paid to Jesus Christ and the august Trinity, and to instruct and stimulate the Christian people to greater advantage.[47]

50. The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circumstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized. This will explain the marvelous variety of Eastern and Western rites. Here is the reason for the gradual addition, through successive development, of particular religious customs and practices of piety only faintly discernible in earlier times. Hence likewise it happens from time to time that certain devotions long since forgotten are revived and practiced anew. All these developments attest the abiding life of the immaculate Spouse of Jesus Christ through these many centuries. They are the sacred language she uses, as the ages run their course, to profess to her divine Spouse her own faith along with that of the nations committed to her charge, and her own unfailing love. They furnish proof, besides, of the wisdom of the teaching method she employs to arouse and nourish constantly the "Christian instinct."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x...ei_en.html
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#37
(01-31-2012, 09:18 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(01-31-2012, 08:58 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote:
(01-31-2012, 08:48 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: Pius XII allowed Bugnini to revise Holy Week.

You know as much as I love Pius XII. I'll never understand this. I mean he wrote a whole encyclicle against doodeling with the sacraments then he allowed that. What gives?

I understood Mediator Dei to be clearly stating that liturgy can and should change, but only the pope has the authority to make such changes, not anyone else.  Take this passage, for example:
Quote:49. From time immemorial the ecclesiastical hierarchy has exercised this right in matters liturgical. It has organized and regulated divine worship, enriching it constantly with new splendor and beauty, to the glory of God and the spiritual profit of Christians. What is more, it has not been slow - keeping the substance of the Mass and sacraments carefully intact - to modify what it deemed not altogether fitting, and to add what appeared more likely to increase the honor paid to Jesus Christ and the august Trinity, and to instruct and stimulate the Christian people to greater advantage.[47]

50. The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circumstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized. This will explain the marvelous variety of Eastern and Western rites. Here is the reason for the gradual addition, through successive development, of particular religious customs and practices of piety only faintly discernible in earlier times. Hence likewise it happens from time to time that certain devotions long since forgotten are revived and practiced anew. All these developments attest the abiding life of the immaculate Spouse of Jesus Christ through these many centuries. They are the sacred language she uses, as the ages run their course, to profess to her divine Spouse her own faith along with that of the nations committed to her charge, and her own unfailing love. They furnish proof, besides, of the wisdom of the teaching method she employs to arouse and nourish constantly the "Christian instinct."

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x...ei_en.html

True, but I dont think Pope Pius XII would approve of what happened during the Reign of Paul VI regarding the Mass. From the quote above " here is the reason for the gradual addition, through successive development, of particular religious customs and practices of piety only faintly discernible in earlier times"  This too me means adding of ceremonies. Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater then throwing out the bathtub too. Like what happened with the NO.
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#38
Paul VI
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#39
(01-31-2012, 09:34 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: True, but I dont think Pope Pius XII would approve of what happened during the Reign of Paul VI regarding the Mass. From the quote above " here is the reason for the gradual addition, through successive development, of particular religious customs and practices of piety only faintly discernible in earlier times"  This too me means adding of ceremonies. Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater then throwing out the bathtub too. Like what happened with the NO.

I suspect that Paul VI didn't really approve of it either.  I think that events ran away with him.  
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#40
I was once fooled by a theologian who said, "how could two Popes (J-23/P-6) with such great love for the Virgin, be so bad? Come on."
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