The Bishops Are Wrong and Have No One But Themselves To Blame for This
#31
(02-02-2012, 02:51 PM)rbjmartin Wrote:
(02-02-2012, 02:24 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: The state was heavily involved in the economy during the middle ages, going so far as to set prices.  The Catholic Church didn't utter a peep.  Neither did the saints. 

Point 1: Just because it happened during the Middle Ages doesn't mean it was good or right. A lot of foolish, unjust, fratricidal wars occurred in the Middle Ages, as well. We need to escape this mentality that says "if it happened in the Middle Ages, it was Catholic."

Point 2: The Church's forte is not social sciences. I don't expect the Church to give definitive teachings on the negative affects of price-fixing. Just because the Church didn't speak on it doesn't mean it's not immoral.

(02-02-2012, 02:24 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Several pre-Vatican II Popes condemned completely unregulated capitalism that allowed the poor and especially children to suffer.

Here we go again. The sort of capitalism that the likes of Leo XIII and Pius XI were speaking out against was, in every case, corporatist capitalism, i.e. large corporations received some sort of corrupt assistance from the government, whether through influence peddling or policy assistance. When your fellow capitalists speak of the merits of capitalism and the free market, you should assume that we are automatically allowing for laws against fraud, theft, and preferential treatment given by the government. We are also asuming that corporations should be held liable for harm done to individuals and to society as a whole.

(02-02-2012, 02:24 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:  You guys are making stuff up to say the Church says the state can't be involved in the economy at all.  You won't be able to provide a single church document or writing of a saint that would support that.

Likewise, nowhere in the Deposit of Faith is it said that government SHOULD be involved in economic engineering.

This.  When the distributists argue for a system that creates "more capitalists, not fewer", they fail to understand that REAL capitalism would do exactly that, while their made up fairy-tale relic of a monarchical era would just consolidate ownership...just like it did in the times of the guilds.

And while the social encyclicals are great, and certainly condemn both the industrial-revolution era capitalism of their day, and socialism, I kind of roll my eyes when people act as if the church should write our economics textbooks....how's that working out with the "social justice" mongerers at the USCCB?
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#32
in response to CR's last post:

Here, we have an instance where it appears that the popes either disagree with each other's opinions (which would be legitimate, since this is not a matter that deals directly with faith and morals, but only indirectly) or their language is ambiguous to such a degree that they appear to be in contradiction while they may not intend to be. As I pointed out, Leo XIII was quite adamant in his defense of the "inviolability of private property." We, as the faithful, can weigh their opinions in the light of reason and our understanding of the Faith. That having been said, I take real issue with this statement:

"Therefore, public authority, under the guiding light always of the natural and divine law, can determine more accurately upon consideration of the true requirements of the common good, what is permitted and what is not permitted to owners in the use of their property."

To assume that public authority somehow has an inside track on the accurate "consideration of the true requirements of the common good" seems incredibly naive and is an unfounded claim. There is no Church teaching that asserts temporal rulers are somehow inspired (which seems to be the implication of the statement above). Even so, he is only speaking to limits in the use of private property. He is not questioning the right to private property itself, and he is certainly not suggesting that the state should use its coercive power to take it away. This is not in contradiction to free market principles, which prevent individuals from using their property in a way harmful to one's neighbors.
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#33
The only thing the State has a right (or even an obligation) to force employers to provide to employees (as far as compensation is concerned) is a fair and just wage in the form of a monetary compensation.  It is then up to the employee to buy what they want or need, including health insurance.

You all are making mountains out of mole hills.
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#34
(02-02-2012, 05:06 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote: The only thing the State has a right (or even an obligation) to force employers to provide to employees (as far as compensation is concerned) is a fair and just wage in the form of a monetary compensation.  It is then up to the employee to buy what they want or need, including health insurance.

You all are making mountains out of mole hills.

The State doesn't have any rights. 

The State here in the US is authorized to do certain things (see enumerated powers) under the Federal Constitution.  I don't see anything about "forcing employers to provide employees" a "fair and just wage" - much less who gets to determine what is "fair" and "just" monetary compensation.
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#35
(02-02-2012, 05:29 PM)Micawber Wrote:
(02-02-2012, 05:06 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote: The only thing the State has a right (or even an obligation) to force employers to provide to employees (as far as compensation is concerned) is a fair and just wage in the form of a monetary compensation.  It is then up to the employee to buy what they want or need, including health insurance.

You all are making mountains out of mole hills.

The State doesn't have any rights. 

The State here in the US is authorized to do certain things (see enumerated powers) under the Federal Constitution.  I don't see anything about "forcing employers to provide employees" a "fair and just wage" - much less who gets to determine what is "fair" and "just" monetary compensation.

God trumps both you and the US Constitution.  See Catecism paragraph 2434 and 2409.

Institute Social Reign of Christ the King!
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#36
(02-02-2012, 07:48 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote:
(02-02-2012, 05:29 PM)Micawber Wrote:
(02-02-2012, 05:06 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote: The only thing the State has a right (or even an obligation) to force employers to provide to employees (as far as compensation is concerned) is a fair and just wage in the form of a monetary compensation.  It is then up to the employee to buy what they want or need, including health insurance.

You all are making mountains out of mole hills.

The State doesn't have any rights. 

The State here in the US is authorized to do certain things (see enumerated powers) under the Federal Constitution.  I don't see anything about "forcing employers to provide employees" a "fair and just wage" - much less who gets to determine what is "fair" and "just" monetary compensation.

God trumps both you and the US Constitution.  See Catecism paragraph 2434 and 2409.

Institute Social Reign of Christ the King!

Great. 

However, one caveat..... 

As soon as we have Traditional Catholics in power (the entire bicameral legislature, the Supreme Court, and the Presidency); and as soon as we know they'll be in power for all the time to come; and if and only if these "Traditional Catholics" are also perfect "Philosopher Kings" with no sinful proclivities at all, including towards aggregating power to themselves; then, once we're given all this, then sure, let's have a new Constitutional convention. 
 
Until we have these things you are merely pursuing a mirage; and it will end badly.  To try to institute paradise on earth has always ended badly.  If you trust sinful man with too much power, you will get what you deserve: tyranny rammed down your throat.  And trust me, it's not likely to be respectful of traditional catholic teaching.  Don't be a fool.  We are to be as innocent as doves - but wise as serpents; and what belongs to Caesar, etc. 



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#37
(02-02-2012, 08:04 PM)Micawber Wrote:
(02-02-2012, 07:48 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote:
(02-02-2012, 05:29 PM)Micawber Wrote:
(02-02-2012, 05:06 PM)Adam_Michael Wrote: The only thing the State has a right (or even an obligation) to force employers to provide to employees (as far as compensation is concerned) is a fair and just wage in the form of a monetary compensation.  It is then up to the employee to buy what they want or need, including health insurance.

You all are making mountains out of mole hills.

The State doesn't have any rights. 

The State here in the US is authorized to do certain things (see enumerated powers) under the Federal Constitution.  I don't see anything about "forcing employers to provide employees" a "fair and just wage" - much less who gets to determine what is "fair" and "just" monetary compensation.

God trumps both you and the US Constitution.  See Catecism paragraph 2434 and 2409.

Institute Social Reign of Christ the King!

Great. 

However, one caveat..... 

As soon as we have Traditional Catholics in power (the entire bicameral legislature, the Supreme Court, and the Presidency); and as soon as we know they'll be in power for all the time to come; and if and only if these "Traditional Catholics" are also perfect "Philosopher Kings" with no sinful proclivities at all, including towards aggregating power to themselves; then, once we're given all this, then sure, let's have a new Constitutional convention. 
 
Until we have these things you are merely pursuing a mirage; and it will end badly.  To try to institute paradise on earth has always ended badly.  If you trust sinful man with too much power, you will get what you deserve: tyranny rammed down your throat.  And trust me, it's not likely to be respectful of traditional catholic teaching.  Don't be a fool.  We are to be as innocent as doves - but wise as serpents; and what belongs to Caesar, etc. 

Gotcha. You make many valid points, I especially agree that a Constitutional Convention is needed. Time for a Confessional State!

I also agree that utopia will not be possible until Christ comes. Any attempt of creating anything close, including adhering to our current constitution, is a bit like chasing a mirage.  But hey, we need to try to have our government reflect Catholic social teaching as much as possible.
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