CDF rejects SSPX second response
(02-05-2012, 03:14 PM)cgraye Wrote: But we do not know what would have happened had that one group not existed.

Thank you for your replies to my questions.  It is interesting to me that you do not seem to follow Msgr. Ocariz's formula entirely.  I think that that is good, though.  Let's leave the good Spanish bishop alone for a while, and see where we stand relative to each other.
Based on your description of your understanding of the indefectability and permanence of the Church, I still think that approach to the SSPX is based on a preconception that the Church can not fall into a state of widespread error.  While I agree that Christ promised the Church would not be entirely effaced, and that as an entity, He would not totally abandon it, the Church can be wiped out in places, reduced to practical insignificance, replaced by new churches or beliefs.  We do not know the actual parameters of Christ's promise, therefore we must fight as though the life of the Church depended on it.  And in a sense it does, because traditionally, if the Church is reduced in scope, then souls are lost as a result. 
I remain confused as to the effect of a few scattered communities, like Solesmes, and the UK being permitted to say the old mass after V2.  The fact was that all over the Catholic world, people were deprived of the old mass and forced either to accept the new mass, go the the SSPX chapel, or leave, as you mentioned some in your family did (as did many in mine).  If one was without money to move to the UK or Belgium, one was out of luck.  Is it right to force a Catholic to attend a mass that is less good than the previous mass?  Is is right to force a Catholic to accept confusing teachings in the place of clear ones?  I think we agree the answer is no.  So, we repeat, what to do?
The answer must depend, under your framework and mine both, on what the Church hierarchy says it is doing.  In the 70s and 80s, the hierarchy continued to insist the new mass was better than the old, that the old had no place in the vast majority of Catholics' daily life, and that V2 was both new and binding on the conscience.  There was no accomodation being made.   
At this point, let's recap:  the mass that was offered to the vast majority is less good, and the teachings were less clear, and the hierarchy was not reversing these problems, the inevitable occurred and people left the Church. Traditionally, the Catholic understood the result of this to be the invetiable loss of souls.  That is what led the SSPX to consecrate bishops.  Under those circumstances, it is hard to see how that act was sinful.  You have objected on nthe basis that had the SSPX not diobeyed Pope JP II, something else might have happened.  But no one else but the SSPX was taking steps to protect the survival of traditional Catholic practice and belief.  To hold otherwise seems like saying that if  Reagan had not oppposed communism, someone else might have, like maybe Mitterand.  It is more likely that no one would have.  That's what the evidence shows.  The Church hierarchy has sought to increase the SSPX's culpability by denying the gravity of the crisis of praxis and doctrine in the modern Church.  This is why Nostrae AEtate is so important: it reverses the effect of apostasy within the Church.  By the way, I thought we were talking about people who left during the 60s-80s, since you mentioned your kinsmen. 
 
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Messages In This Thread
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Dmorgan - 02-01-2012, 09:21 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Aragon - 02-02-2012, 05:48 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Josué - 02-03-2012, 01:24 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 01:11 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 01:32 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 03:46 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 04:40 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Dmorgan - 02-03-2012, 05:12 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by FHM310 - 02-03-2012, 05:12 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Nic - 02-03-2012, 05:18 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 05:32 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 06:38 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-03-2012, 07:45 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 07:53 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 07:57 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 08:12 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 08:16 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Dmorgan - 02-03-2012, 09:48 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Justin - 02-03-2012, 09:58 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 10:13 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-03-2012, 10:47 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-03-2012, 11:31 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 12:16 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-04-2012, 12:34 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 12:39 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Aragon - 02-04-2012, 12:40 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-04-2012, 12:50 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-04-2012, 12:51 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-04-2012, 01:02 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Aragon - 02-04-2012, 01:14 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Dmorgan - 02-04-2012, 09:33 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 09:40 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-04-2012, 12:32 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Meg - 02-04-2012, 01:00 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Meg - 02-04-2012, 01:30 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 01:41 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 01:53 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Graham - 02-04-2012, 02:22 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Justin - 02-04-2012, 02:33 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 03:23 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 04:56 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 05:40 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 06:46 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 07:37 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-04-2012, 08:54 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-05-2012, 10:08 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-05-2012, 03:14 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Warrenton - 02-05-2012, 05:12 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Silouan - 02-05-2012, 05:41 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-05-2012, 05:57 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-05-2012, 06:19 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Silouan - 02-05-2012, 11:11 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-06-2012, 12:13 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-06-2012, 02:53 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-06-2012, 03:07 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-06-2012, 09:47 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Doce Me - 02-06-2012, 11:55 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-07-2012, 12:49 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by cgraye - 02-07-2012, 11:20 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-09-2012, 03:41 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-12-2012, 02:58 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-12-2012, 07:39 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-12-2012, 11:06 PM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by JayneK - 02-13-2012, 08:30 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-16-2012, 03:24 AM
Re: CDF rejects SSPX second response - by Tapatio - 02-16-2012, 04:18 AM



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