The Eastern Churches and St. Thomas Aquinas
(02-09-2012, 07:52 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 07:41 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Indeed, the Eastern reaction to Calvinistic Scholasticism was so allergic, they had to convene the Synod of Jerusalem to confront it: http://unsettledchristianity.com/2010/10...calvinism/

The Synod of Jerusalem was convened to counteract the influence of Constantinople's patriarch Cyril Lucaris who strove for a reform of the Eastern Orthodox Church along Protestant and Calvinist lines.

Precisely.  There was also an incipient Calvinist movement in Russia that similarly was confronted by the Eastern Bishops.  This incursion of Calvinist Scholasticism forms a large part of Eastern responses to Western thought, I believe, to this day, which is necessary to understand why they might be leery of Scholastic methodology.  To overcome this, charity is necessary.
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(02-09-2012, 08:55 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 07:52 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 07:41 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Indeed, the Eastern reaction to Calvinistic Scholasticism was so allergic, they had to convene the Synod of Jerusalem to confront it: http://unsettledchristianity.com/2010/10...calvinism/

The Synod of Jerusalem was convened to counteract the influence of Constantinople's patriarch Cyril Lucaris who strove for a reform of the Eastern Orthodox Church along Protestant and Calvinist lines.

Precisely.  There was also an incipient Calvinist movement in Russia that similarly was confronted by the Eastern Bishops.  This incursion of Calvinist Scholasticism forms a large part of Eastern responses to Western thought, I believe, to this day, which is necessary to understand why they might be leery of Scholastic methodology.  To overcome this, charity is necessary.

Scholasticism had been around for centuries before Calvin showed up. Your argument requires quite a leap of logic.

The East is leery of Scholastic methodology because it knows that it usually ends up with the student converting to Catholicism. That's the real reason.
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(02-09-2012, 08:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 08:55 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 07:52 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 07:41 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Indeed, the Eastern reaction to Calvinistic Scholasticism was so allergic, they had to convene the Synod of Jerusalem to confront it: http://unsettledchristianity.com/2010/10...calvinism/

The Synod of Jerusalem was convened to counteract the influence of Constantinople's patriarch Cyril Lucaris who strove for a reform of the Eastern Orthodox Church along Protestant and Calvinist lines.

Precisely.  There was also an incipient Calvinist movement in Russia that similarly was confronted by the Eastern Bishops.  This incursion of Calvinist Scholasticism forms a large part of Eastern responses to Western thought, I believe, to this day, which is necessary to understand why they might be leery of Scholastic methodology.  To overcome this, charity is necessary.

Scholasticism had been around for centuries before Calvin showed up. Your argument requires quite a leap of logic.

The East is leery of Scholastic methodology because it knows that it usually ends up with the student converting to Catholicism. That's the real reason.

Not so.  I know Eastern Scholastic-trained theologians, who have not converted.  Hell, I know Protestant Scholastics, in the mold of Wolf.

Read what Easterners say about St. Augustine.  They almost always adopt Calvinistic readings, "Augustine taught X, whereas the Orthodox Church says Y," where X is a Calvinist proposition, and Y is what St. Augustine taught.  There is a general ignorance in the East about the Scholastics, but it is not accurate to respond to ignorance by assuming bad will, but with enlightenment.  Also, remembering that reception is in the mode of the receiver, so sensitivity to the Eastern mindset is important when talking to them.  Melkite was scandalized because he thought TrentCath meant something other than what he meant by "pain," which led to all sorts of confusion.
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Yes, diplomacy and tact are welcome but it's not "unenlightened" to presume at least some bad will on the part of the Eastern Orthodox (as well as Protestants). There certainly is some since anti-Romanism is just a defining trait of their religion.
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(02-09-2012, 08:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The East is leery of Scholastic methodology because it knows that it usually ends up with the student converting to Catholicism. That's the real reason.


To the contrary, we see all of the carnage that has been wrought by Protestantism and modern secular humanism as the only logical result of Scholasticism. That extends even today to the destruction of the Latin liturgy and the crisis we have seen in the Roman Catholic Church.
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(02-09-2012, 09:33 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 08:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The East is leery of Scholastic methodology because it knows that it usually ends up with the student converting to Catholicism. That's the real reason.

To the contrary, we see all of the carnage that has been wrought by Protestantism and modern secular humanism as the only logical result of Scholasticism. That extends even today to the destruction of the Latin liturgy and the crisis we have seen in the Roman Catholic Church.

A quite unwarranted conclusion.

One could easily turn the tables around and accuse the East of intellectual sclerosis in its superstitious hatred of scholasticism and western thought.
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(02-09-2012, 06:38 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Guys,

I think it's time to stop, this is getting awfully similar to schoolyard fights. There's no agreement possible for the time being so move on. Let's not derail the topic any further.

I agree, my apologies.
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(02-09-2012, 06:44 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 05:12 PM)su Wrote: This thread was about the possible jealousy of the works of St. Thomas Aquinas.


It has nothing to do with jealousy. Frankly the problem is, true or not,  he is seen as the proto-Calvinist and the father of Western Scholasticism. That is why he is not held in esteem by the Christian East. I have no doubt he was a holy man but to us the fruits look suspicious.

I can see that to the untrained eye the teachings on predestination may look vaguely similar but aside from that they have little in common, have you actually read the summa or at least some of it? No one who had done so could sustain such a claim.

As for the fruits they have been nothing but fruitful where he has been followed faithfully, if you are trying to establish a causal claim between him and Calvin or the reformation that is simply ludicrous. To establish such a claim with a 3 century gap one would need some pretty convincing evidence and to know that he was followed faithfully. No such evidence exists and he was most certainly not followed.
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(02-09-2012, 09:33 PM)Silouan Wrote:
(02-09-2012, 08:59 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: The East is leery of Scholastic methodology because it knows that it usually ends up with the student converting to Catholicism. That's the real reason.


To the contrary, we see all of the carnage that has been wrought by Protestantism and modern secular humanism as the only logical result of Scholasticism. That extends even today to the destruction of the Latin liturgy and the crisis we have seen in the Roman Catholic Church.

To which we can quite simply reply that:
A) that is ignorant and a statement that can only be made in bad faith or by one who does not understand st Thomas
B) the nationalisation of the orthodox churches is a result of separation from Rome
C) the obsession with small t traditions and the stagnant theology is for the same reason

I have to say I agree in some way with Su, eastern orthodox theology is stagnant because of the very nature of eastern orthodox faith and so of course they are 'jealous' of someone like St Thomas
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Well, I don't think St. Thomas is responsible of course, but it does seem that Protestantism and secular humanism are in some measure a result of developments within late scholasticism. Look at Bl. Duns Scotus and William Ockham. Of course, why these later schoolmen went down this path is another question.
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