The Eastern Churches and St. Thomas Aquinas
(02-07-2012, 08:57 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-07-2012, 08:51 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-07-2012, 08:48 PM)Parmandur Wrote: The usual terms for the intermediary state are Ecclesia Penitens or Ecclesia Expectans.  Here are the definitions for those words from William Whitaker's Words:

penit.ent            V      2 1 PRES ACTIVE  IND 3 P   
peniteo, penitere, penitui, -  V   [FXXDZ]    Medieval  lesser
displease; (cause to) regret; repent, be sorry; [me paenitet => I am sorry];
do penance;

penitet, penitere, penituit, -  V  IMPERS   [FXXEZ]    Medieval  uncommon
it displeases, makes angry, offends, dissatisfies, makes sorry;

expect.ans           VPAR   1 1 NOM S X PRES ACTIVE  PPL
expect.ans           VPAR   1 1 VOC S X PRES ACTIVE  PPL
expect.ans           VPAR   1 1 ACC S N PRES ACTIVE  PPL
expecto, expectare, expectavi, expectatus  V   [XXXDX]    lesser
await, expect; anticipate; hope for;

You are wrong to insist so strongly on the "pain" side of things, as that is metaphorical for what the penitential spirits go through in Purgatory on the way to Heaven.  Dante depicts them singing and encouraging each other in brotherhood as they ascend the seven story mountain to Heaven.  That is as valid a depiction, per Church teaching, as cleansing fires. 

Yes because clearly the Council is wrong  :eyeroll:

There is pain or suffering of some sort, that is the teaching of the Church, if you wish to engage in mental gymnastics to try and avoid this do not expect me to follow you.

There is certainly a lack, which we can understand analogously by the metaphor of pain.  Pain is physical.  The souls in purgatory are spirits, not bodies.  This is equally clear from the Councils teaching.  You are over-emphasizing the metaphor, and condemning Melkite for not selectively reading the text the way you insist on.

No I am not, there is a pain of some sort, I did not insist on a literal burning or anything else, merely a pain of some sort. You may try to reduce it to a metaphor by the fact remains the councils teaching is clear there are 'cleansing pains', you could perhaps interpret it in some other way if common teaching declared otherwise but it does not, it goes even further. If believing it to be pain is selective reading then believing it to be a pure metaphor and not to be pain at all is reading into the text your own opinions.

I condemned Melkite for denying this and asserting that it all came from private revelation, which is not at all true, as well for the other questionable statements vis a vis the ecumenical councils.

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Re: The Eastern Churches and St. Thomas Aquinas - by TrentCath - 02-08-2012, 05:44 AM

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