The Eastern Churches and St. Thomas Aquinas
(02-07-2012, 08:57 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(02-07-2012, 08:51 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(02-07-2012, 08:48 PM)Parmandur Wrote: The usual terms for the intermediary state are Ecclesia Penitens or Ecclesia Expectans.  Here are the definitions for those words from William Whitaker's Words:

penit.ent            V      2 1 PRES ACTIVE  IND 3 P   
peniteo, penitere, penitui, -  V   [FXXDZ]    Medieval  lesser
displease; (cause to) regret; repent, be sorry; [me paenitet => I am sorry];
do penance;

penitet, penitere, penituit, -  V  IMPERS   [FXXEZ]    Medieval  uncommon
it displeases, makes angry, offends, dissatisfies, makes sorry;

expect.ans           VPAR   1 1 NOM S X PRES ACTIVE  PPL
expect.ans           VPAR   1 1 VOC S X PRES ACTIVE  PPL
expect.ans           VPAR   1 1 ACC S N PRES ACTIVE  PPL
expecto, expectare, expectavi, expectatus  V   [XXXDX]    lesser
await, expect; anticipate; hope for;

You are wrong to insist so strongly on the "pain" side of things, as that is metaphorical for what the penitential spirits go through in Purgatory on the way to Heaven.  Dante depicts them singing and encouraging each other in brotherhood as they ascend the seven story mountain to Heaven.  That is as valid a depiction, per Church teaching, as cleansing fires. 

Yes because clearly the Council is wrong  :eyeroll:

There is pain or suffering of some sort, that is the teaching of the Church, if you wish to engage in mental gymnastics to try and avoid this do not expect me to follow you.

There is certainly a lack, which we can understand analogously by the metaphor of pain.  Pain is physical.  The souls in purgatory are spirits, not bodies.  This is equally clear from the Councils teaching.  You are over-emphasizing the metaphor, and condemning Melkite for not selectively reading the text the way you insist on.

You will also see that Ludwig Ott states 'The Second general council of Lyons and the Council of Florence agree in delclaring: "For the allevation of the punishments these are profitable to the poor souls, namely: The Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers amd alms and other works of piety, which the Faithful are accustomed to perform for one another according to the institutions of the Church'

The Council of Trent declaed against the Reformers who rejected the Fires of Purgatory, that there is a cleansing fire, and that the souls held fast in it receive help through the intercessory prayers of the Faithful, above all by the sacrifice of the Altar, which is pleasing to God...' p321

And again later on '...Poena damni consists in the temporart exclusion from the beatific vision of God. On the ground of the special judgement which has gone before, it is, however associated with the certainty of the final beatification. The poor souls are conscious that they are children and friends of God and long or the most intimate unification with Him. Thus the termporary separation is all the more painful to them.

To the Poena damni is added, according to the general teaching of the theologians, a poena sensus. The Latin Fathers, the Schoolmen, and many theologians of modern time, in view of 1 Cor 3:15, assume a physical fire. However, the biblical foundation for this is inadequate. Out of consideration for the separate Greeks, who reject the notion of a purifying fire, the official declaration of the Council speak only of purifying punishments not of purifying fire. .... The temporal punishments for sins are atoned for in the purifying fire by the so-called suferng of atonement, that is, by the willing bearing of the expiatory punishments imposed by God'

That there is suffering of some kind and this what the word pain in common parlance denotes, cannot therefore be doubted.

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Re: The Eastern Churches and St. Thomas Aquinas - by TrentCath - 02-08-2012, 06:02 AM

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