Goodbye
#11
(02-25-2012, 09:46 AM)russiaphile Wrote: I believe that I wasn't clear, Im not leaving communion with Rome, I am still Catholic. However, I have found a peace at the Orthodox parish that I would never find at any Latin parish- SSPX, FSSP, Diocesan, anything.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. You are not leaving the catholic church or embracing the schism of 1054, and you're doing this by attending an Eastern Orthodox Church? I'm going to assume that if any church defines themselves as EO they are by their very nature, in schism.  King Henry the VIII always told himself that he was still a Catholic despite his actions. He was wrong. You can't just attend an EO church, while crossing your fingers and remain catholic. If you really feel compelled to join the Orthodox then have the courage of your convictions and embrace what you are doing. If not, then find a good catholic priest and let him work you through what ever problems you are having. I hope I'm not coming off as a jerk, because that is not my intent. I understand that things in the church today are, to say the least, confusing. In any case, I will pray for you later tonight and I hope you find the peace your looking for within the catholic church.
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#12
(02-25-2012, 02:44 PM)MeanGene Wrote:
(02-25-2012, 09:46 AM)russiaphile Wrote: I believe that I wasn't clear, Im not leaving communion with Rome, I am still Catholic. However, I have found a peace at the Orthodox parish that I would never find at any Latin parish- SSPX, FSSP, Diocesan, anything.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. You are not leaving the catholic church or embracing the schism of 1054, and you're doing this by attending an Eastern Orthodox Church? I'm going to assume that if any church defines themselves as EO they are by their very nature, in schism.  King Henry the VIII always told himself that he was still a Catholic despite his actions. He was wrong. You can't just attend an EO church, while crossing your fingers and remain catholic. If you really feel compelled to join the Orthodox then have the courage of your convictions and embrace what you are doing. If not, then find a good catholic priest and let him work you through what ever problems you are having. I hope I'm not coming off as a jerk, because that is not my intent. I understand that things in the church today are, to say the least, confusing. In any case, I will pray for you later tonight and I hope you find the peace your looking for within the catholic church.

This is one of the best pieces of advice I've seen in my few years on the forum.

I personally have a particular affinity for the Eastern Church, which I became acquainted with through being neighbors with a small Greek Orthodox Mission.  I have a great respect for the Orthodox, I have several friends who are Orthodox, and at a certain level I could feel very "at home" at this particular mission parish.  I on occassion visit them to attend a Divine Liturgy or Vespers, always also attending Mass at a Catholic parish.

One would suggest looking for an Eastern Catholic parish, but I would suppose you've already perhaps thought of that and there isn't one where you live.  I agree with MeanGene that you can't "straddle the fence" - "remaining" Catholic but worshiping exclusively with the Orthodox.  You've got to decide, for among many reasons so that you may have access to the life giving sacraments.  We pray that you stay with Rome.  As MG has suggested find a good priest (try several if you need to) to talk this out with.

:pray:
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#13
I thought you were converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, Russiaphile.

If you remain a Catholic, you should know perfectly well that you can't eat the Lamb outside the Father's house. You're putting your soul at risk. Why don't you try Eastern Catholic parishes instead? You can't worship God outside His Church. You're sinning grievously, against the faith. Please, reconsider.
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#14
(02-25-2012, 03:02 PM)moneil Wrote: I on occassion visit them to attend a Divine Liturgy or Vespers, always also attending Mass at a Catholic parish.

And why would you do that? That's the sin of communicatio in sacris. The fact that you also attended Mass in a Catholic parish doesn't excuse the sin.

Quote:I agree with MeanGene that you can't "straddle the fence" - "remaining" Catholic but worshiping exclusively with the Orthodox.

Neither exclusively nor partially. A Catholic can't worship God outside the Church without sinning grievously against the cardinal virtue of faith.
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#15
I advise Russiaphile that he find a good, traditional Catholic priest to speak too. You do not want to risk communicatio in sacris.
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#16
Vetus, aren't the Orthodox, by having valid apostolic succession,  graced sacraments, and being valid churches, part of the Church, albeit in an imperfect state of communion?   Thats what I've been reading from Rome. Also, the reasons I have not decided to attend any Greek Catholic churches id because one is very closed in on its Ukrainian-ness, and the other one is withering away. Also, I have talked to my Latin church priest, who is very conservative, and he said that I can attend the Orthodox Church seeing as I have not fallen into any heresy.
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#17
(02-25-2012, 03:07 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(02-25-2012, 03:02 PM)moneil Wrote: I on occassion visit them to attend a Divine Liturgy or Vespers, always also attending Mass at a Catholic parish.

And why would you do that? That's the sin of communicatio in sacris. The fact that you also attended Mass in a Catholic parish doesn't excuse the sin.

Dear Vetus,

In the pre VII praxis and discipline (which is the prevailing culture of the forum) this is true.  There were times when one could not so much as say the Lord's Prayer together with a non Catholic.

Today the discipline of the Church allows one to on occassion (i.e., not regularly) attend a non Catholic Christian services (I believe there are still additional restrictions on non Christian venues) for certain specific reasons (i.e., not just because one is curious or wants to).  I need to get on the road (in the snow *sigh*) to visit my mother so I can't immediately look up the eclesiastical documents but I have consulted them.  Among the allowed reasons: for family (especially in a mixed marriage or if a Catholic spouse is a convert, for an event in their non Catholic family), for public events significant to the local community (for example, a common Catholic - Orthodox saint who is the community's patron), and to promote greater mutual understanding, hopefully as a prelude to the renunion of non Catholics to the Church.  Having to rely on memory I belive the "permission" is especially allowed for an Orthodox service.  Perhaps because, as Pius XI writes in Rerum Orientalium (September 8, 1928): among those nations (the Orthodox) a very great part of Revelation has been religiously preserved, sincere service is rendered to Christ Our Lord, great piety and love are shown towards His sinless Mother, and devout use made of the Sacraments.  On an Orthodox altar I know that a true and valid (if illicit in some eyes) Sacrifice is being offered.

I realize that there are those here who sincerely hold exclusively to the pre VII praxis of the Church (and some prefer pre '62, or pre '55, and a few even pre 1910).  I respect that.  However I am a Roman Catholic in a diocesan parish which is in full communion with the Supreme Roman Pontiff.  The Church's current discipline allows, with proper reason and intent, to do on occassion what I do, and I have chosen to avail myself of the provision.

The provision does not provide a general dispensation from the Mass obligation, (priests are permitted to grant individual dispensations for each particular occurance), so I attend Mass also, or else I would be in sin (unless I had obtained a dispensation).

My personal reasons for doing this are that I receive great spiritual succor from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chryostom that I often don't from the typical 1969 missal Mass and that I'm pretty sure I wouldn't from the typical Low Mass of my youth (this perhaps having to do more with the way the liturgies are celebrated than the attributes of the respective liturgies themselves).  I do so to promote mutual understanding, as the provision calls for.  I do so to experience a very deep and ancient traditional worship of the Church.  The Liturgy of St. John Chryostom is based upon the Divine Liturgy of St. James, the second (after St. Peter) Bishop of Jerusalem, and both pre date the liturgical work of St. Gregory the Great (upon which the Latin Rite Mass is based).

An aspect of my appreciation of the Orthodox is, as a typical "baby boomer" (1951) who started life out with the revisions of Pius XII, lived through the the John XIII and Paul VI changes (revolution, if one prefers), and having some appreciation for the "setteling down" that seems to be occuring under Benedict XVI, it was from the Orthodox that I first experienced the beauty, stability, spiritual power, and value of tradition.  This, as I've mentioned, was due to the "accidential" of having a Greek Orthodox Mission by my house and having become one day acquainted with the Presvytera of the priest, who traveled 400 miles each way twice a month to serve the mission.  Perhaps if my house in that town had been next to a SSPX or CMRI chapel, or if there were an FSSP parish in my town at the time, I may have found a differnt path.

I have also visited and been a communicant at the three Ruthenian parishes in my state.  However those are all 100 - 400 miles from where I now live and my former town where my mother lives.  My work with dairy cows has me at work on half the year's Sundays and having a now 90 year old mother has me visiting and helping her most of the other weekends of the year.

If there were an Eastern Catholic parish accessible to my geography and schedule I would feel bound to attend there rather than the "Greeks".  I hope some day to attend the High Mass at Mount St. Michaels (CMRI) in Spokane (I obviously won't take Holy Communion).  I believe this would be under the same provision that permits attendance at an Orthodox service.  God willing I hope to make a trip to Seattle this spring for the Village Bicycle Project, and to attend the High Mass at the FSSP Parish there.  If God grants me the opportunity and grace to make a good confession beforehand I will take Holy Communion there.

I respect that those who hold exclusively to pre VII praxis won't agree with what I do.  Those who have never experienced the Liturgy and devotional life of the Eastern Church may not fully understand their power and grace (I'm not suggesting that they are "better" than western practices but certainly not lessor, and for many very fullfilling).

For understanding, while I'm sure not agreement, I have explained why I do what I do, and the manner in which I do it.  My understanding is that the Church permits me to do what I do, in the manner that I do it.  I always pray for discernment in these matters, and will continue to do so.
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#18
(02-25-2012, 09:46 AM)russiaphile Wrote: I believe that I wasn't clear, Im not leaving communion with Rome, I am still Catholic. However, I have found a peace at the Orthodox parish that I would never find at any Latin parish- SSPX, FSSP, Diocesan, anything.

Matthew 10:34 Wrote:Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.

I think your acts here are against all of Catholic teaching and tradition. You have made yourself the supreme authority in your life. That is not good. Parish hopping is another story, but if it is that bad for you, you could find a Catholic parish in another rite.
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#19
(02-25-2012, 03:12 PM)russiaphile Wrote: Vetus, aren't the Orthodox, by having valid apostolic succession,  graced sacraments, and being valid churches, part of the Church, albeit in an imperfect state of communion?

There's only one Church of Christ which is the Catholic Church. Either you believe in it or you don't, it's simple.

The Orthodox are separated from the Church of Christ by schism, and heresy in some cases. They're not part of the Church in any true sense: rather,  they're outside of her. Any talk about "partial communion" is just newspeak intended to foster ecumenism. The truth, however, is that either you're in the Church or you're outside of her. You can't be partially in the Church, anymore than a woman can be partially pregnant.

The Orthodox, albeit having valid priests and sacraments, are outside the Church. They eat the Lamb outside the Father's house which is terribly sinful.
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#20
(02-25-2012, 03:12 PM)russiaphile Wrote: Also, I have talked to my Latin church priest, who is very conservative, and he said that I can attend the Orthodox Church seeing as I have not fallen into any heresy.

Interesting, because even under the very liberal 1983 Code of Canon Law, one cannot fulfill one's Sunday and Holy Day Obligation in an Orthodox Church.
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