Well done, good and faithful Fisheaters
#11
(02-25-2012, 07:25 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: For all who wanted to have a serious conversation, only to have me post a picture of a turtle or cowboy, please accept my sincere apology.

It's about time you admitted that I was right!
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#12
Well, this is very, very, very sad to me. I hate this. I'll miss you a lot. I SO hope you change your mind sad Or if you don't, I hope you don't become a stranger...
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#13
sad sad
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#14
WRC, you and I didn't always agree on everything (who ever does?), but I definitely respected you as a poster. The general silliness that has infected fisheaters (especially the "meme" responses) are very perturbing to me, but I have learned that it is just as silly to let myself become bothered by something so silly. Though you were often a contributer of these silly responses, I didn't hold it against you. I attributed my frustration more to my own failures than to you. Your apology is accepted. 

I have made many of the same observations as yourself, which is one of the reasons I post much less. Fighting for the "TLM only" is now a very controversial position to hold, which never used to be the case, and one finds one's self having to defend such a view now more than ever. This is not the reason we came here. We came here to get away from those people; now, even here "TLM only" people are treated as though they are enemies of the Church. (I don't want to start a debate about it here; I just want to point out that it is very disheartening to those of us who have seen this position creep into traditional Catholicism and cause division from within.)

I am one of those people who never makes a decision lightly, so if I ever decided to the leave the forum, it would be for good. Thus, when I have been tempted to do so, I have simply limited my posting activity in case things began to improve. Obviously, you're reacting to a long-term trend rather than a one-time period, so I respect your decision.

Come back when (if?) things improve!

May God love and keep you forever close to His most Sacred Heart.

Pax Christi tecum.

Monstrance
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#15
(02-25-2012, 11:39 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: WRC, you and I didn't always agree on everything (who ever does?), but I definitely respected you as a poster. The general silliness that has infected fisheaters (especially the "meme" responses) are very perturbing to me, but I have learned that it is just as silly to let myself become bothered by something so silly. Though you were often a contributer of these silly responses, I didn't hold it against you. I attributed my frustration more to my own failures than to you. Your apology is accepted. 

I like silliness myself. I think people need to lighten up some and have some fun once in a while.

(02-25-2012, 11:39 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: I have made many of the same observations as yourself, which is one of the reasons I post much less. Fighting for the "TLM only" is now a very controversial position to hold, which never used to be the case, and one finds one's self having to defend such a view now more than ever. This is not the reason we came here. We came here to get away from those people; now, even here "TLM only" people are treated as though they are enemies of the Church. (I don't want to start a debate about it here; I just want to point out that it is very disheartening to those of us who have seen this position creep into traditional Catholicism and cause division from within.) 

The definition of "traditional Catholicism" that this forum goes by, and which is linked to in the forum's introductory page, is here:  http://fisheaters.com/traditionalcatholicism.html. It says, toward the bottom:

[html]
Quote: Depending on how he understands the nature of Christian obedience, schism, and the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass, a given traditional Catholic layman might have firm opinions for or against the advisability of worshiping outside of diocesan structures, or, conversely, he might worship at more than one of the above Mass settings without qualm.

A given traditional Catholic might equally like both the F.S.S.P. and the S.S.P.X., thinking it good that there are those fighting for (at least) some level of Tradition both inside and outside of ordinary diocesan structures, while another may think one group superior to the other or even that one group is unacceptable for some reason.

Some refuse to attend Novus Ordo Masses (except for funerals and weddings of family and friends), thinking it invalid or believing it "morally impossible" to do so because they see it -- not because of what it is, inherently, but because of what it isn't, what it lacks -- as too dangerous to the Faith to support, even if valid. If they have no access to the traditional Mass, some of these traditional Catholics become "home-aloners" making do like our forbears during various persecutions. Other traditionalists may attend Novus Ordo Masses out of their understanding of the requirements of obedience if the traditional Mass is unavailable in their area, while doing all in their power to find a traditional Mass.
[/html]

Trads can and obviously do disagree about the validity of the N.O. Mass, the wisdom of attending it if that's all that's available, and so on. I don't see what the big deal is, especially since, right below that section quoted above, there is a section that lists what all trads agree on. I don't see why it'd be so upsetting for someone who refuses to attend a N.O. Mass to hear that another trad does when that's all there is, or why a trad who might attend a N.O. Mass thinks that another trad who wouldn't, under any circumstances, is wrong. So they disagree. I also say on the forum's rules page:

[html]
Quote: And, please, for the love of all that's holy, cushion personal opinions and conclusions about where and how to worship, etc., in phrases such as "in my opinion" or "it seems to me" or "this is what my family has decided to do" -- and don't pretend to be speaking authoritatively unless you are known all over the world as Pope Benedict XVI. Don't generalize your personal experiences, callings, preferences, and sense of aesthetics such that what you've decided is right for you and your family with regard to worship, penance, devotions, how to dress modestly, which music to listen to, whether or not to watch TV, etc., is a must for all Catholics everywhere. The old "I live on Communion Hosts and water like St. So-and-So. Everyone should! No, everyone must! It's Church teaching! Anyone who doesn't do that isn't a 'real Catholic' or a 'real trad'!" routine won't fly here. Purveyors of such arrogance and judgmentalism will get gone.
[/html]

Each trad has to consider Church teaching, the nature of the TLM and NO Masses, what's available to him where he lives, the requirements of obedience and what that means in his own particular life --- and shouldn't judge others for thinking differently. I don't see why people just can't cope with that and be cool with people who disagree. And if there's a thread where such a discussion is going on and a poster doesn't like it, there are other threads around to engage in. Some people like to debate such things; others (like me) don't. The forum's big enough for all of us if people would just chill and not pretend to be the Pope or to know other people's hearts, minds, and circumstances. KWIM?

Quote:  (snip) Come back when (if?) things improve!

Yeah, come back!

Quote: May God love and keep you forever close to His most Sacred Heart.
Amen.
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#16
Dang it!  I hope you do return, WRC.  But if you don't, then goodbye and take care.  If you're ever in the Baltimore/Washington area again, be sure and look me up.
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#17
(02-26-2012, 12:07 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(02-25-2012, 11:39 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: WRC, you and I didn't always agree on everything (who ever does?), but I definitely respected you as a poster. The general silliness that has infected fisheaters (especially the "meme" responses) are very perturbing to me, but I have learned that it is just as silly to let myself become bothered by something so silly. Though you were often a contributer of these silly responses, I didn't hold it against you. I attributed my frustration more to my own failures than to you. Your apology is accepted. 

I like silliness myself. I think people need to lighten up some and have some fun once in a while.

Of course. But "once in a while" is a very different thing from one's standard and default "modus operandi," which is what I was referring to.
Quote:
(02-25-2012, 11:39 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: I have made many of the same observations as yourself, which is one of the reasons I post much less. Fighting for the "TLM only" is now a very controversial position to hold, which never used to be the case, and one finds one's self having to defend such a view now more than ever. This is not the reason we came here. We came here to get away from those people; now, even here "TLM only" people are treated as though they are enemies of the Church. (I don't want to start a debate about it here; I just want to point out that it is very disheartening to those of us who have seen this position creep into traditional Catholicism and cause division from within.) 

The definition of "traditional Catholicism" that this forum goes by, and which is linked to in the forum's introductory page, is here:  http://fisheaters.com/traditionalcatholicism.html. It says, toward the bottom:

Quote: Depending on how he understands the nature of Christian obedience, schism, and the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass, a given traditional Catholic layman might have firm opinions for or against the advisability of worshiping outside of diocesan structures, or, conversely, he might worship at more than one of the above Mass settings without qualm.


A given traditional Catholic might equally like both the F.S.S.P. and the S.S.P.X., thinking it good that there are those fighting for (at least) some level of Tradition both inside and outside of ordinary diocesan structures, while another may think one group superior to the other or even that one group is unacceptable for some reason.


Some refuse to attend Novus Ordo Masses (except for funerals and weddings of family and friends), thinking it invalid or believing it "morally impossible" to do so because they see it -- not because of what it is, inherently, but because of what it isn't, what it lacks -- as too dangerous to the Faith to support, even if valid. If they have no access to the traditional Mass, some of these traditional Catholics become "home-aloners" making do like our forbears during various persecutions. Other traditionalists may attend Novus Ordo Masses out of their understanding of the requirements of obedience if the traditional Mass is unavailable in their area, while doing all in their power to find a traditional Mass.


Trads can and obviously do disagree about the validity of the N.O. Mass, the wisdom of attending it if that's all that's available, and so on. I don't see what the big deal is, especially since, right below that section quoted above, there is a section that lists what all trads agree on. I don't see why it'd be so upsetting for someone who refuses to attend a N.O. Mass to hear that another trad does when that's all there is, or why a trad who might attend a N.O. Mass thinks that another trad who wouldn't, under any circumstances, is wrong. So they disagree. I also say on the forum's rules page:

Quote: And, please, for the love of all that's holy, cushion personal opinions and conclusions about where and how to worship, etc., in phrases such as "in my opinion" or "it seems to me" or "this is what my family has decided to do" -- and don't pretend to be speaking authoritatively unless you are known all over the world as Pope Benedict XVI. Don't generalize your personal experiences, callings, preferences, and sense of aesthetics such that what you've decided is right for you and your family with regard to worship, penance, devotions, how to dress modestly, which music to listen to, whether or not to watch TV, etc., is a must for all Catholics everywhere. The old "I live on Communion Hosts and water like St. So-and-So. Everyone should! No, everyone must! It's Church teaching! Anyone who doesn't do that isn't a 'real Catholic' or a 'real trad'!" routine won't fly here. Purveyors of such arrogance and judgmentalism will get gone.


Each trad has to consider Church teaching, the nature of the TLM and NO Masses, what's available to him where he lives, the requirements of obedience and what that means in his own particular life --- and shouldn't judge others for thinking differently. I don't see why people just can't cope with that and be cool with people who disagree. And if there's a thread where such a discussion is going on and a poster doesn't like it, there are other threads around to engage in. Some people like to debate such things; others (like me) don't. The forum's big enough for all of us if people would just chill and not pretend to be the Pope or to know other people's hearts, minds, and circumstances. KWIM?

Again, of course. It isn't that they aren't allowed here. It is simply that there are much more of them (as regular posters) now. They routinely take TLM-only traditionalists to task for voicing their opinion that one should not attend the new liturgy. It isn't that this opinion isn't allowed here; rather, it is that their sheer numbers have the effect of making traditional Catholics apprehensive about saying what they are members of this forum to be able to say.
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#18
(02-26-2012, 12:42 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Again, of course. It isn't that they aren't allowed here. It is simply that there are much more of them (as regular posters) now. They routinely take TLM-only traditionalists to task for voicing their opinion that one should not attend the new liturgy. It isn't that this opinion isn't allowed here; rather, it is that their sheer numbers have the effect of making traditional Catholics apprehensive about saying what they are members of this forum to be able to say.

I've observed this as well. When I found this forum (many centuries ago. Mr. Winky ), I found it because I did a Google search for "traditional Catholic forum", and the reason I used those search terms was because I wanted to find a place to socialize with like-minded Catholics. I wanted to join a place where I could feel comfortable saying "I only attend the TLM and I believe that there huge problems with the NOM and mainstream Catholicism". When I initially joined here, I definitely felt comfortable saying that. Now? Not so much. It's not that Catholics who didn't feel like I did about the subject weren't allowed here or weren't allowed to voice their opinion; it's that it was clearly understood that this forum was supposed to be a haven for traditional Catholics --the commonly understood definition of traditional Catholics (which I'll address in a minute)--who didn't want to deal with the same gut-wrenching NO vs TLM (etc) debates they would find on the Catholic Answers-type forums.

To address my comment about the commonly understood definition of traditional Catholics: it was generally understood that when you called yourself a traditional Catholic, that meant that you attended the TLM exclusively because you had serious, serious issues with attending the NOM, you tried your darnedest to shun anything that smacked of modernism in the Church, and you didn't spend vast amounts of time insisting that VII documents must be interpreted "in the light of tradition". It's perhaps a narrow definition, but that is essentially (not completely, of course) what it used to boil down to. But what seems to have happened is that the definition of "traditional Catholic" has loosened so much as to include anyone who has a fondness for the TLM (I'm exaggerating a bit here, obviously), and the natural result has been increased discordance --not just here, but everywhere.

Now with all that said, this IS Vox's forum, and she will run it as she sees fit. That is absolutely her right, and it's a thankless task let me tell you! She also can't possibly see every post in here. She's only one person. I'm just laying out what I have observed as a long-time member.

WRC, I wish you well!
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#19
Eh, there are more trads who think the NO is valid even though it's objectively inferior to the TLM (as the SSPX thinks), and who might think ("and who, therefore, think" some may say) that obedience demands going to a NO Mass if that's all that's available, than there are trads who say no way, no how. Not my fault, folks -- if it be a fault to begin with. It is what it is...  Same with the reading of Vatican II documents. In my mind, as long as trads agree on what all trads agree on  -- per the FE page Traditional Catholicism 101: A Primer" -- s'all good by me, and a matter of individual conscience informed by Church teaching -- something between a man, his priest, and God. I don't want folks on either side of these questions "excommunicating," as it were, other trads who differ.
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#20
Oy vey. That's a shame. Farewell, WRC, and good luck.
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