Why was the Mass changed?
#11
(02-28-2012, 10:09 AM)Blessed Pokemon88 Wrote: Perhaps I shouldn't make a joke of it but the only other answer I can think of is "because they were evil bastards!".

True enough.

Quote:Funny thing is though the person responsible did not even get the title [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Man_for_All_Seasons_(1966_film)#Plot"]"attorney general for wales"[/url] all he got was [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annibale_Bugnini#After_Consilium"]"Papal Nuncio for Iran".[/url]

This is awful, true, and made me laugh out loud.  Trifecta!
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#12
(02-28-2012, 01:58 AM)Northstar Wrote: It'd be more accurate to ask why an entirely new Mass was created after VII. And the answer to that lies in Vatican 2 itself, in the Council's commitment to ecumenism. The Mass of All Time is highly UN-ecumenical (praise God), so one that was nonthreatening to protestants was needed.

I think this sums it up, but the answer is still more complicated.

First, remember that the first new missal published during/after the council still resembled the Tridentine Mass. I've read the text of the missal and it's basically like reading the English side of my 1954 missal, though some signs of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament were supressed and ad orientem came under attack. Not a good change, IMO but no NO by a long shot.

The Church dabbled with that missal for a few years, then second one that apparently didn't catch on widely, called the Missae Normativa.

The current Mass of Pope Paul VI is the third new missal introduced after 1962, from what I've read so far. And it wasn't the work of the council fathers of Vatican II, but after they went home a special commission was convened to draft more changes and it was they that produced the Novus Ordo Missae.

So while I think most of the hierarchy bears some responsibility for forcing the NO on parishes over a short period of time, I'm still not convinced that the men who approved the documents at Vatican II would have created the NO or approved it had it been asked of them.

Thus, I think that the NO is a product of VII insofar as VII was the breach in the hull of Peter's barque, but I don't think it actually reflects the more conservative attitude toward liturgical change that VII proposed. If you read the VII document on the liturgy, it stresses the value of Latin and Gregorian chant. I think the 1965 missal more accurately reflects the thoughts of the council fathers.

So yes, I think they made a new Mass for ecumenical reasons, I even think they hoped it would convert the Protestants, and I think it was shortsighted and proved highly destructive, but I think the greatest responsibility lies with a smaller clique within the hierarchy than we typically assume.

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#13
It might be helpful to read about Modernists to get a better understanding of what’s going on. Michael Davis wrote a book called Partisans of Error that is a very informative, quick/easy read. I’m a convert and still don’t have a good grasp of what going on, but that helped a lot. I agree w/ Pokemon though I grew up Lutheran and the NO has a lot of similarities to their services.

It wasn’t only the change of the Mass but the abolishment of the Oath of Modernists and the prayers after Low Mass (esp. the St. Michael Prayer). II think it was Pope Leo XIII who instituted the prayers because he had a frightful dream that Our Lord would allow the Church to be infiltrated for 100 years.
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#14
"I would say, to please the Protestants."

In my experience the NO does not please Protestants.

Several of my Prot aquantences have been going to the TLM and they made the mistake of also going to the NO.

When they were learning about the Faith and going to the Traditional Latin Mas they were seriously thinking about converting.
As soon as they went to the NO they were severely discouraged and have stopped learning the Catechism.

Hopefully that will change soon.

I think the NO Mass was made to destroy the Faith.
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#15
(02-28-2012, 12:16 PM)Old Salt Wrote: I think the NO Mass was made to destroy the Faith.
Are you insinuating that the magisterium of the Church created a Rite that destroys Faith?
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#16
(02-28-2012, 12:26 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:16 PM)Old Salt Wrote: I think the NO Mass was made to destroy the Faith.
Are you insinuating that the magisterium of the Church created a Rite that destroys Faith?
Yes I am.

Despite this I believe since the NO is officially promulgated by the Church, it is a Catholic Mass and fulfills the holyday obligation.
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#17
(02-28-2012, 12:41 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:26 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:16 PM)Old Salt Wrote: I think the NO Mass was made to destroy the Faith.
Are you insinuating that the magisterium of the Church created a Rite that destroys Faith?
Yes I am.

Despite this I believe since the NO is officially promulgated by the Church, it is a Catholic Mass and fulfills the holyday obligation.

So the Church, who is indefectible and infallible, has "officially promulgated" a liturgy which destroys the Faith, and hundreds of millions of people are forced to attend this Mass as they have no other option?
A "Catholic Mass" can destroy Faith and "fulfill" obligations?  ???
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#18
(02-28-2012, 12:45 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:41 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:26 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:16 PM)Old Salt Wrote: I think the NO Mass was made to destroy the Faith.
Are you insinuating that the magisterium of the Church created a Rite that destroys Faith?
Yes I am.

Despite this I believe since the NO is officially promulgated by the Church, it is a Catholic Mass and fulfills the holyday obligation.

So the Church, who is indefectible and infallible, has "officially promulgated" a liturgy which destroys the Faith, and hundreds of millions of people are forced to attend this Mass as they have no other option?
A "Catholic Mass" can destroy Faith and "fulfill" obligations?  ???
Yes.

Look at the fruits.
Millions have lost the Faith.

Yet since the NO was legally promulgated it is a Catholic Mass and therfore fulfills the obligation.

It seems the supreme legislator of the NO, in this case Pope Paul VI was duped, by Concilium, into promulgating a Mass that caused the loss of Faith in many.
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#19
(02-28-2012, 12:49 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:45 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:41 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:26 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:16 PM)Old Salt Wrote: I think the NO Mass was made to destroy the Faith.
Are you insinuating that the magisterium of the Church created a Rite that destroys Faith?
Yes I am.

Despite this I believe since the NO is officially promulgated by the Church, it is a Catholic Mass and fulfills the holyday obligation.

So the Church, who is indefectible and infallible, has "officially promulgated" a liturgy which destroys the Faith, and hundreds of millions of people are forced to attend this Mass as they have no other option?
A "Catholic Mass" can destroy Faith and "fulfill" obligations?  ???
Yes.

Look at the fruits.
Millions have lost the Faith.

Yet since the NO was legally promulgated it is a Catholic Mass and therfore fulfills the obligation.

It seems the supreme legislator of the NO, in this case Pope Paul VI was duped, by Concilium, into promulgating a Mass that caused the loss of Faith in many.

Duped or not, you have just said that the Church has given rocks when Her faithful ask for bread.
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#20
(02-28-2012, 12:53 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:49 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:45 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:41 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:26 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(02-28-2012, 12:16 PM)Old Salt Wrote: I think the NO Mass was made to destroy the Faith.
Are you insinuating that the magisterium of the Church created a Rite that destroys Faith?
Yes I am.

Despite this I believe since the NO is officially promulgated by the Church, it is a Catholic Mass and fulfills the holyday obligation.

So the Church, who is indefectible and infallible, has "officially promulgated" a liturgy which destroys the Faith, and hundreds of millions of people are forced to attend this Mass as they have no other option?
A "Catholic Mass" can destroy Faith and "fulfill" obligations?  ???
Yes.

Look at the fruits.
Millions have lost the Faith.

Yet since the NO was legally promulgated it is a Catholic Mass and therfore fulfills the obligation.

It seems the supreme legislator of the NO, in this case Pope Paul VI was duped, by Concilium, into promulgating a Mass that caused the loss of Faith in many.

Duped or not, you have just said that the Church has given rocks when Her faithful ask for bread.
From what I have seen the Novus Ordo Missae is a rock not a loaf.
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