I can't believe this isn't getting discussed on FE!
#11
(03-21-2012, 02:04 PM)JayneK Wrote: Positions that have been held by trads all along are becoming acceptable in way they have not ever been before.  I think the reconciliation of the SSPX would solidify the gains already made and take us even further.

No gains will have any staying power until the hierarchy actually condemns officially the errors of the day regardless of whether they are or are not directly tied to Vatican II. 
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#12
(03-21-2012, 02:26 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(03-21-2012, 02:16 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(03-21-2012, 02:13 PM)Gerard Wrote: Just as a person baptized in an emergency by a layperson may not be canonically a "Catholic" but they are "inside" the Church.

I'm pretty sure that an emergency baptism by a layperson is valid and licit.  The person baptized is canonically a Catholic.

I'm stating that they are a Catholic even though there is no official record of the Baptism or the person's name in a parish register.

OK.  I get it now.
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#13
(03-21-2012, 02:13 PM)Gerard Wrote: The "outside" vs. "inside" argument regarding the SSPX has to be cleared up. 

"Outside" means that people believe the crisis is nowhere near as great as Archbishop LeFebvre thought and he was wrong to consecrate the bishops since JPII was doing so much to stem the crisis. 

The SSPX did nothing to put them "outside" unless you are referring to "Inside" as being part of the mass apostasy going on. 

The invalid excommunications were the best thing that could have happened to the SSPX.  They could grow unimpeded by the diocesan bishops and the hierarchy in Rome that deliberately set about destroying tradition in the Church. 

The SSPX is God's workaround to flummox His enemies that are inside the Church organizational structure. 

I want the SSPX to remain "outside" of the crisis "inside" the Church.  Until the Pope acknowledges the extent of the crisis in the Church, the SSPX will not have a fighting chance within the organizational structure. 

But they have always been "inside" the Church just not inside the canonical setup.  Just as a person baptized in an emergency by a layperson may not be canonically a "Catholic" but they are "inside" the Church.

Of course u r right, I was not inferring that the SSPX was outside the Church per se but simply trying to draw a distinction between those that would be considered clergy "in good standing" though that too is somewhat problematic.
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#14
Rome should sweeten the pot just a little more.  Guarantee that every priest of the SSPX will be consecrated a bishop, given the most important sees in the Latin Church the secretariats in the Vatican and control of the religious orders.  Then appoint a supermajority of them to the College of Cardinals.  

At that point, I think a real, sincere effort will be in the works to restore the Church and end the crisis.  

ps. anyone who has read "The Final Conclave" by Malachi Martin will know that Paul VI deliberately loaded the college of Cardinals  with people of the mind to destroy tradition.  So asking for a redress of that issue is not really a snarky nor unreasonable demand.

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#15
The more I read this letter the more insidious it gets, especially when taken in the context of the larger Church situation and the participants. 

We have a prelate with no real authority admitting vaguely to a crisis and appealing on emotion for the SSPX to "return." 

This is after everyone was taking the most recent statement as an ultimatum regarding a formal declaration of schism. 

If the Devil himself were asked to bring the SSPX "back into communion" I wouldn't see a bit of difference.

Sticks, carrots, emotional appeals.  unfulfillable promises, salesman schtick " The time is now!" 

Change a few of the subjects and objects and you could make this letter an appeal by a used care salesman. 

"You would look soooo good behind the wheel of this baby!"
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#16
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
- Pope Paul VI, Nostra Aetate, Second Vatican Council

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_counc...te_en.html

Why would the SSPX want to accept this teaching (among many others) of VII and join Rome?
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#17
Is that an accurate translation?  I seem to remember another translation with the slippery language of 'we esteem the Moslems who profess to adore the one, true God...."  It's a completely true statement of what the claims of the Moslems are with no word about whether they are correct or not.. 
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#18
(03-21-2012, 03:44 PM)Gerard Wrote: Is that an accurate translation?  I seem to remember another translation with the slippery language of 'we esteem the Moslems who profess to adore the one, true God...."   It's a completely true statement of what the claims of the Moslems are with no word about whether they are correct or not.. 

It's the Vatican's translation. http://www.vatican.va is the official website for the Vatican.
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#19
(03-21-2012, 04:09 PM)ZekarjaSG Wrote:
(03-21-2012, 03:44 PM)Gerard Wrote: Is that an accurate translation?  I seem to remember another translation with the slippery language of 'we esteem the Moslems who profess to adore the one, true God...."   It's a completely true statement of what the claims of the Moslems are with no word about whether they are correct or not.. 

It's the Vatican's translation. http://www.vatican.va is the official website for the Vatican.

I wouldn't put it past them to fudge the translations.  I was looking for a passage from  Pascendi  at one time and noticed that the the Vatican website had "retranslated" the passage to the point of it being deleted.
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#20
(03-21-2012, 02:46 PM)Gerard Wrote: Rome should sweeten the pot just a little more.  Guarantee that every priest of the SSPX will be consecrated a bishop, given the most important sees in the Latin Church the secretariats in the Vatican and control of the religious orders.  Then appoint a supermajority of them to the College of Cardinals.  

At that point, I think a real, sincere effort will be in the works to restore the Church and end the crisis.  

ps. anyone who has read "The Final Conclave" by Malachi Martin will know that Paul VI deliberately loaded the college of Cardinals  with people of the mind to destroy tradition.  So asking for a redress of that issue is not really a snarky nor unreasonable demand.
No this is the only course. Also this invite seems codified that they accept VAT2 whole ...in not so many words...its like they are saying come be with us...just like they would say to the buddists or animists....or am I exaggerating.
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