Is Faith logical?
#1
An atheist friend told me that Faith is not logical, and so the faithful cannot argue against an atheist, because an atheist uses logic. 

How would one respond to these two questions if they were posed by an atheist:

1. Is it logical to believe there is a God?

2. Is it logical that Christianity is the true Faith?

And we'll see where this goes.
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#2
(03-24-2012, 12:37 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote: An atheist friend told me that Faith is not logical, and so the faithful cannot argue against an atheist, because an atheist uses logic. 
How would one respond to these two questions if they were posed by an atheist:

1. Is it logical to believe there is a God?

2. Is it logical that Christianity is the true Faith?

And we'll see where this goes.

How convenient for the athiest. :eyeroll:

I'm not going to go into the whole logical belief in God question, but remember that athiests really have no effective arguments except their own skepticism and their opinion that its ridiculous to believe in God and angels because its like believing in fairies.  They don't answer the question of if God exists, they just ridicule that belief.  Since this athiest friend is sooo logical, ask him to logically demonstrate that God does not exist, using arguments that do not rely on the nature of God, (i.e. if God exists, why is there evil in the world.  This relates to the actions of a being, not his existence.  An odd example: Did Jeffrey Damer not exist because he murdered and cannbialzied? No, that he did this stuff has nothing to do with the fact he existed.)  And then ask for arguments that simply say it is ridiculous to believe in God, this has to deal with what a human thinks about believeing in God, again, it has nothing to do with whether he exists. 

Im no philosopher, but I hope this gave you a little "ammo" for your argument.
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#3
Logic will never bring faith. it's called faith because it takes a leap from reason. The new Trad Movement appears to not understand that Faith is always a gift from God and can not be arrived at from study. Reason can only inform Faith, partially. Proof of God can not be arrived at a priori. The best proof comes from the OT in that the complexity of the seen world demands a Creator. You and he might want to look at David Berlinski. He is a math logician, and he is smart as anyone ever, and he is a Thomist, but he has no faith. He says he has done as much as he can and he waits for God. Berlinski is a very interesting case.

tim
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#4
St. Thomas' "First Mover" argument, combined with statistics, probability, principals like Ocam's razor, the Shroud of Turin, and the Miracle of the Sun, pretty much destroy almost any argument a psychologically enslaved atheist can muster.

Somebody more intelligent than I will probably further elaborate, but Faith is indeed very logical.
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#5
(03-24-2012, 01:36 PM)Tim Wrote: Logic will never bring faith. it's called faith because it takes a leap from reason. The new Trad Movement appears to not understand that Faith is always a gift from God and can not be arrived at from study. Reason can only inform Faith, partially. Proof of God can not be arrived at a priori. The best proof comes from the OT in that the complexity of the seen world demands a Creator. You and he might want to look at David Berlinski. He is a math logician, and he is smart as anyone ever, and he is a Thomist, but he has no faith. He says he has done as much as he can and he waits for God. Berlinski is a very interesting case.

tim

Very good points.  I'm reading St. John of the Cross at the moment, and he talks much about this "darkness of faith."  But as Dellery said, the Faith is logical.  Its just not received through the normal sense of learning, the senses, but given directly by God.  Which is why it is more important to pray for athiests.
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#6
Faith is not logical nor can it be arrived at by reason. The best we can do is come to the conclusion is there is probably a Creator Prime Mover.
This argument has been gone over here several times in days of old and New Advent has good info, especially concerning Vatican I and the anathema against Atheists denying the existence of God.

From New Advent;

Theistic proofs

The arguments for God's existence are variously classified and entitled by different writers, but all agree in recognizing the distinction between a priori, or deductive, and a posteriori, or inductive reasoning in this connection. And while all admit the validity and sufficiency of the latter method, opinion is divided in regard to the former. Some maintain that a valid a priori proof (usually called the ontological) is available; others deny this completely; while some others maintain an attitude of compromise or neutrality. This difference, it should be observed, applies only to the question of proving God's actual existence; for, His self-existence being admitted, it is necessary to employ a priori or deductive inference in order to arrive at a knowledge of His nature and attributes, and as it is impossible to develop the arguments for His existence without some working notion of His nature, it is necessary to some extent to anticipate the deductive stage and combine the a priori with the a posteriori method. But no strictly a priori conclusion need be more than hypothetically assumed at this stage.

tim
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#7
Faith is not irrational. It's kind of superrational. Faith is not against reason, but it goes above and beyond reason.

You can reach and find the existence of God through reason, without faith. That a supernatual being or entity exists, can be reached on human reason alone. The proofs of the existence of God from both St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Anselm are more than adequate.

Faith is a free gift from God and you need the gift of faith to be able to reach truths about who God is and about the Catholic faith. You need faith to accept the trinity, the sacraments, and Jesus Christ.
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#8
Is it rational to have an atheist friend?
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#9
Tim is correct that faith is a grace.
Nonetheless, faith is also logical. I could not believe, it were illogic. And faith, or let us say the Catholic Faith specifically, if far more logical than any other worldview that I am aware of. It answers so many questions about human nature that are simply ignored by other worldviews.
If you believe in pure materialism and evolution, you cannot explain, why man is capable of creating art. How does Bach's intricate music, Mozart's genius help anyone in survival of the fittest? Your atheist friend will possibly tell you that these are some elaborate forms of a mating dance in order to impress women, but anyone who is honest with himself sees how ridiculous this claim is. Why is man capable of creating whole worlds in his mind, like Tolkien's Middle-Earth? There is no explanation in atheism.
Yet Catholicism's answer is a beautiful as it is logic: Because man is the only creature that bears the breathe of the creator within him.

Here is the blog of Jennifer Fulwiler, who argued herself into Catholicism on pure logic. You can read her entire story, including the discussions between her when she was still an atheist and Christians in her old blog's archive.
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#10
Illogical is not believing in God or an Author of Life or whatever you want to call Him (it). An atheist will talk about the "big bang" and how it came about and molecules and blah blah blah. Taking all of that at face value, who caused it? There HAD to be a beginning and someone responsible for it. They think they can prove everything but they can't. Because they see themselves as gods, they MUST have all the answers.
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