Dawkins and Pell battle it out in one hell of a debate
(04-15-2012, 09:36 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(04-15-2012, 01:12 AM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: Well, I don't know if it necessarily refutes the scientific understanding of human life so much as it sets it within a broader context. One can accept evolution while refusing to accept the materialism and mechanistic view of nature that many try to smuggle in with the science. So, I think these claims are directly opposed to scientism, but not necessarily science, though obviously these points have already been discussed.

The God of theistic evolutionists is the God of the gaps, a sort of deus ex machina used to explain what science cannot yet explain.

Admittedly, I think this can be true for some theistic evolutionists, but I don't think that it needs to be the case. St. Thomas thought that God's relationship with the universe would remain the same even if it turned out that the universe were eternal. So, I'm not sure why evolution would necessitate a god of the gaps. You can still accept all of the traditional beliefs about the order of grace and God's creation and sustenance of the universe.

If anything, it seems to me that many of those who support intelligent design, mostly the ones who say that ID is only about science and has nothing to do with the Bible, end up accepting a mechanistic, clockwork universe and a deistic god who occasionally intervenes in the universe through miracles, but otherwise stands back and lets things run on their own. The Fathers, who of course mostly read Genesis literally, did not view the universe in this way, and modern creationists don't need to either, but it does not seem that rejecting evolution is always sufficient to guarantee a rejection of the god of the gaps and the mechanical view of the universe that became popular after the Enlightenment.
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Quote:The God of theistic evolutionists is the God of the gaps, a sort of deus ex machina used to explain what science cannot yet explain.

The "gap" in this case is an explanation of the immaterial aspects of man, which science will structurally NEVER be able to explain -- that's not a gap, it's chasm.
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Back to the video . . .

According to Cardinal Pell, it helps to believe in God in order to be moral?

???
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(04-16-2012, 10:51 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Back to the video . . .

According to Cardinal Pell, it helps to believe in God in order to be moral?

???

(In a Christian understanding) "Belief" in God promotes good morals, but of course the Grace of God is still present regardless of a person's belief.
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(04-16-2012, 11:00 AM)Azurestone Wrote:
(04-16-2012, 10:51 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Back to the video . . .

According to Cardinal Pell, it helps to believe in God in order to be moral?

???

(In a Christian understanding) "Belief" in God promotes good morals, but of course the Grace of God is still present regardless of a person's belief.

Of course, but according to Christianity, a person who constantly rejects that grace will be refused more grace and sink further and further into evil. Rejecting the grace to believe in God is a cause of this.
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(04-16-2012, 11:19 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(04-16-2012, 11:00 AM)Azurestone Wrote:
(04-16-2012, 10:51 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Back to the video . . .

According to Cardinal Pell, it helps to believe in God in order to be moral?

???

(In a Christian understanding) "Belief" in God promotes good morals, but of course the Grace of God is still present regardless of a person's belief.

Of course, but according to Christianity, a person who constantly rejects that grace will be refused more grace and sink further and further into evil. Rejecting the grace to believe in God is a cause of this.

But that doesn't mean that God doesn't continually reach out to people. A person acting in love, even when consciously rejecting God, can be proof of that.
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(04-16-2012, 11:28 AM)Azurestone Wrote:
(04-16-2012, 11:19 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(04-16-2012, 11:00 AM)Azurestone Wrote:
(04-16-2012, 10:51 AM)INPEFESS Wrote: Back to the video . . .

According to Cardinal Pell, it helps to believe in God in order to be moral?

???

(In a Christian understanding) "Belief" in God promotes good morals, but of course the Grace of God is still present regardless of a person's belief.

Of course, but according to Christianity, a person who constantly rejects that grace will be refused more grace and sink further and further into evil. Rejecting the grace to believe in God is a cause of this.

But that doesn't mean that God doesn't continually reach out to people. A person acting in love, even when consciously rejecting God, can be proof of that.

Yes, that is true; you are correct. A person can perform natural good without believing in God. I was talking about supernatural good, such as the theological virtues, and these cannot be performed without belief in God. But the discussion in the debate seemed to concern only natural good, so you are correct.
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INP, you are a braver man than I.  I watched several portions of the debate, half of it at most.  I couldn't stomach any more.
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