Co-Redemptrix
#31
(05-06-2012, 03:16 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(05-06-2012, 02:51 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: The other Marian dogmas all help emphasize the centrality of Christ, but the co-redemptrix title detracts from it. Remember what St. Peter taught on Pentecost:

Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him this man standeth here before you whole. This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.

The doctrine of Co-Redemptrix in absolutely no way detracts from the centrality of Christ. Without Christ, there is no redemption. Without Mary, there is no Christ.

And without Anna and Joachim there is no Mary.
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#32
(05-06-2012, 12:58 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Is St. Joseph co-redeemer as well?

After all, if it weren't for Him both Christ and the Blessed Virgin would have perished in the hands of Herod, among other episodes.

Exactly. These word games and novelties get us in over our heads.


"This Apostolic Church never turned from the way of truth nor held any kind of error. It is imperative that nothing of the truths which have been defined be lessened, nothing altered, nothing added, but that they be preserved intact in word and meaning. This is the true rule of faith."

-Pope St. Agatho the Wonderworker
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#33
The difference between the title of Co-Redemptrix given to Mary and not Sts. Joseph, Anna, and Joachim is that Mary was chosen to have a uniquely privileged co-operative role in the redemption--a role greater than any other mortal. It was not of St. Joseph that He came into the world, though St. Joseph did have an important role; and it was only indirectly by Anna an Joachim that He came into the world. But it was directly of Mary that the Redeemer came into the world. This is why the title is given to her and no-one else, in the same way that the title of the Redeemer is given to Christ alone and no-one else, since it was by Him directly that mankind was redeemed.
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#34
(05-06-2012, 04:05 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: I consider her a mediator with all the saints, taking up our supplication to God, but will never hold her to be co-redemptrix.

So when She is dogmatically proclaimed Co-Redemptrix, you will leave the Church? As has been pointed out, it is quite likely that she would have been proclaimed as such at V II if it hadn't been hijacked by the modernists who opposed the idea on (false) 'ecumenical' grounds.

***ETA*** I would suggest you read/reread St Louis-Marie. The more honour we give Her, the more honour we are giving Her Son. Honouring Her can only lead us ever closer to Him.
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#35
Interesting thread. From the first I heard of this idea, I have been wary of it. There have been some good explanations in this thread. But among other problems, how do we square a new unique title exalting Mary as the pre-eminent co-operator with God with Jesus' own words that "there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist?"
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#36
(05-06-2012, 10:26 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(05-06-2012, 04:05 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: I consider her a mediator with all the saints, taking up our supplication to God, but will never hold her to be co-redemptrix.

So when She is dogmatically proclaimed Co-Redemptrix, you will leave the Church? As has been pointed out, it is quite likely that she would have been proclaimed as such at V II if it hadn't been hijacked by the modernists who opposed the idea on (false) 'ecumenical' grounds.

***ETA*** I would suggest you read/reread St Louis-Marie. The more honour we give Her, the more honour we are giving Her Son. Honouring Her can only lead us ever closer to Him.

The question is, by what motive or necessity would such a delcaration be made? Would it be a response to a novelty or a novelty in itself. WHY would it be declared. WHY would it be necessary for salvation. It wouldn't. If explained in a certain sense, then sure the concept may make sense, but it is unnecessary. It is doctrine for doctrines sake, speaking for speaking sake, not out of necessity of pastoral direction or antidote for poisonous malicious doctrine, or for means of salvation. All that is necessary is to believe Mary is spotless virgin immaculate for the reason that from thus would come the spotless and immaculate saviour. It is Mary's wish that we would give all worship honor and praise to her son, not to her. Her incredible humility and love of her son means she does not want to be considered co-anything in any sense of etymology. All such is words for words sake, not words for souls sake or salvations sake. Mary is not co in any way she IS a mediator in certain sense, but not level with incarnate word. She is inferior to trinity in nature, person, etc. All comes FROM God THROUGH Jesus. Is Moses co redemer of Israel? Is Noah co-redemer of Genesis man? These men give ALLL praise to God, they are not co-anything, and as such are justified in their humility. When people worshiped. To whom did Moses or Noah ascribe the glory? To whom did their people ascribe the glory? To God they ascribed and were justified. And if these men did such, how much greater the humility than Mary immaculate virgin. In perfect humility she always takes a back seat. So we should follow her wishes and "Do all that he tells you to do". IMO

p.s. I love MAry as much as the next guy. Should I not also love Mary as much as the next guy. "Thou shalt love your neighbour as yourself" for the love of God. All for love of God. Mary is GOOD, but God IS Good.

p.s.s. French election is bad news on more bad news. Bandade on a cut to the juggular. Eurozone is gonzo. Scutttle the ship boyz

p.s.s.s. Go Washington!

p.s.s.s.s. Mayweather wins again, how sad, how dissapointing. Big money.

sip.sip.chug.
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#37
(05-06-2012, 12:58 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Is St. Joseph co-redeemer as well?

After all, if it weren't for Him both Christ and the Blessed Virgin would have perished in the hands of Herod, among other episodes.

By simple, Biblical Pauline logic, yes.  St. Joseph is a co-redeemer, an advocate for us in heaven, and a mediator of grace.  As are all saints.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is the saint par excellence.  She is worthy of hyperdulia, because of her hyper-co-redeemptive role, her hyper-advocating role, and her hyper-mediation role.
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#38
I don't see a problem with this truth being defined (as explained by Ott, St. Pius X, and various other Church documents, summed up in CCC 618), but I don't think the term "Co-Redemptrix" adequately transmits that truth (even though it is intended to). It's not like other words the Church has adopted, like homoousion or transubstantiation, which, IMO much more clearly sum up the truth they are intended to convey.

That being said, it wouldn't have been the first time a newly introduced term, while intended to mean something orthodox,  led to some confusion requiring more in-depth explanation by Magisterium (e.g. Filioque)
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#39
(05-07-2012, 06:29 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: I don't see a problem with this truth being defined (as explained by Ott, St. Pius X, and various other Church documents, summed up in CCC 618), but I don't think the term "Co-Redemptrix" adequately transmits that truth (even though it is intended to). It's not like other words the Church has adopted, like homoousion or transubstantiation, which, IMO much more clearly sum up the truth they are intended to convey.

That being said, it wouldn't have been the first time a newly introduced term, while intended to mean something orthodox,  led to some confusion requiring more in-depth explanation by Magisterium (e.g. Filioque)

To say that homoousion or transubstantiation are clear terms that have never caused confusion is not the case.  Both terms are fraught with potential misunderstandings and common equivocations based in different definitions of terms, like "substance."
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#40
(05-06-2012, 10:26 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(05-06-2012, 04:05 PM)UnamSanctam Wrote: I consider her a mediator with all the saints, taking up our supplication to God, but will never hold her to be co-redemptrix.

So when She is dogmatically proclaimed Co-Redemptrix, you will leave the Church?

It seems unlikely that she will ever by dogmatically given that title since, "a 1996 Vatican appointed theological commission voted 23-0 against the proposed dogma" (Wiki) and since Benedict XVI doesn't support it.

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