Introducing people to the TLM via the Novus Ordo
#11
Will someone please explain to me why we need two rites? This whole idea of two rites is just down right confusing, if the Catholic Church is the one true Church shouldn't there be only one true mass.  ???
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#12
(04-25-2012, 11:28 AM)Might_4_Right Wrote: Will someone please explain to me why we need two rites? This whole idea of two rites is just down right confusing, if the Catholic Church is the one true Church shouldn't there be only one true mass.  ???
The two Form of the Latin Rite thing is probably to save face as there is embarrassment at splitting the Churches Latin liturgy up this way so a back story is made up.
We need one form of Mass in the Latin Rite
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#13
As far as I know there has always been more than one rite available to Latin Catholics. In points in the past, more and then sometimes less, but always more than one. I don't think we should mind liturgical diversity. The fact that there are "two forms" of the "one Roman Rite" is a little weird, though, I agree, which I believe is why some seem to be pushing for a synthesis rite that would unify the two forms (whatever one might think of such an effort).
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#14
(04-25-2012, 11:20 AM)MRose Wrote:
(04-25-2012, 10:23 AM)Tim Wrote: I'm for the method of tossing them in the water, with one caveat. I'd reintroduce the Missa Cantata. Folks that are used to the ordinary form like to participate, and they could be introduced more easily with this Mass. Look at how effective EWTN was with introducing bits of Latin and the sung parts of ordinaries. Don't get too tricky, stick to the basics, don't introduce polyphony. One more thing, I'd take advantage of Pope Pius XII's allowance of the faithful chanting the Pater Noster. These folks are used to this, and chanting it in Latin would elevate their natural inclination, and suppress their hand raising and praying or holding hands and praying. I'd bet a buck within a year they'd be participating at a dignified and reverent Missa Cantata, like it was supposed to be according to Vatican II documents. The priests according to the documents were responsible for teaching the ordinaries in Latin. This would harness their exuberance and stifle their silliness. Show tune singers and folk music singers, and dippy rock and rollers, be gone !

tim

While I certainly agree that chanting the Pater Noster in Latin will quickly suppress any attempts to hand-holding, I think that there is a significant theological problem with the laity reciting or chanting the Pater Noster with the priest at Mass. The Pater Noster is a priestly prayer (in the context of Holy Mass), and always has been (at least in the Roman Rite) ever since Pope St. Gregory the Great fixed its place as directly following the Canon. It is always prayed with the priest's hands open (i.e. as at the Collect) because this posture denotes intercession. This is how the priest prays when he prays on behalf of all else present. The concept of the priest praying this prayer with the people but with his hands in the intercessory position reflects conflicting theological-liturgical principles and is a rupture with liturgical tradition.

Good to know, and interesting about the posture. I've begun to find it consoling, and almost ecstatic, to rely on father's chant of the Pater Noster.
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#15
(04-25-2012, 11:28 AM)Might_4_Right Wrote: Will someone please explain to me why we need two rites? This whole idea of two rites is just down right confusing, if the Catholic Church is the one true Church shouldn't there be only one true mass.  ???


Seriously?  :doh:
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#16
People are drawn to the externals, but why go to a Novus Ordo in Latin when the TLM is available?
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#17
The Pater Noster was taught to all of us. Pope Pius XII allowed the recitaion by the congregation. I don't see it as part of the Mass that only a priest needs to pray. In fact today's modern missals do not bold all of the ordinary and responses for the faithful, causing many to believe they should be quiet, more the rubrics for the Low Mass says the priest should be audible for the servers, and this is misinterpreted that it should be inaudible to the congregation. Here's my point because of the cataclysm and the rupture people's interpretation of Tradition has changed.

Because of the disdain for the ordinary form, participation is frowned on, and it is inaudible so they have no chance of responding. Phooey,that ain't right. I heard my favorite priest during the Trduum say "this will be the ONLY time you'll ever get to pray the Pater Noster with the priest". I like him and it shows how this has become emblamatic of the new Tradition.

Sometimes I wish I could get Mr. Peabody and his way back machine, and take you guys back to the time before the crash, so you could at least see this ain't a straight line from there to here.

tim

tim
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#18
(04-25-2012, 12:19 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: People are drawn to the externals, but why go to a Novus Ordo in Latin when the TLM is available?

Because people aren't comfortable with the TLM yet.

If you buy into the whole "if we switch immediately back >50% will leave the Church" argument, a slow transition is useful and much more helpful.  The whole "frog in a pot of water slowly heating up" type thing.
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#19
Perhaps. I think sometimes a slow transition is necessary.
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#20
Not really.  The problem with the brick by brick approach is that we can't trust the bricklayers.  Put one brick on, take another off, etc, etc.  

ETA: What I see as a probability when the NO is abrogated and the Traditional Mass is reinstated (which will happen unless this is the end) is having the TLM in English while the people and the clergy (the ones that stay) "get used to the changes."

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