Introducing people to the TLM via the Novus Ordo
#51
(04-25-2012, 11:01 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(04-25-2012, 10:58 PM)mikemac Wrote: I'm taking a friend that has never been to anything but the Novus Ordo to the Latin Mass this coming Sunday.  It will be a Missa Cantata, a sung low Mass with just one priest.  I'm sure my friend will be impressed.  I am using the right term, Missa Cantata aren't I?  I had to look it up after Tim suggested it.  It seems there are two different meanings to it.

Yes. Even though a sung Mass is colloquially referred to as "high Mass" because it has music, it's technically still a low Mass, but sung. A high Mass, or solemn Mass, properly has a deacon and subdeacon. The solemn Mass is virtually extinct even in trad-dom outside of seminaries and pontifical rites...... and that's a very bad sign.

Really? Wow. My parish has Solemn Mass every single Sunday and other holy days of obligation. I wasn't aware of how rare that is.
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#52
(04-26-2012, 07:19 AM)JayneK Wrote: In Toronto, the Oratorians celebrate a high Mass every week.  Because there is a community of them, there are multiple priests to draw on.  I think that it would be difficult to manage in a normal parish setting. It is a bit too far for me to go every week but I get to it at least once a month. 

Also the Una Voce people organize a high Mass for various solemnities throughout the year.   If people have not attended a high Mass, I recommend going to one if the opportunity arises. 

Thanks Tim and Jayne.  Jayne is it on King St. West in Toronto where the Oratorians celebrate a high Mass every week?  I guess the Jameson Ave. turn off from the Gardiner Expressway would be the best way to come from Peterborough eh?
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#53
(04-26-2012, 06:32 AM)Tim Wrote: Pardon for confusing with Missa Cantata, but ol' HK is right on the money. High Mass needs a deacon, and a sub-deacon. If only a priest it's a low Mass, and they were called Cantata if sung, Dialogata if the congregation fully patrcicipated saying the ordinary and responses, and recitata is just the responses. See St. Andrew Missal for details.

If someone has an old St. Joseph Daily Missal from before the Council would you look at the Levabo for me, I seem to remember it was bolded and could be said by the congregation, too.
tim

I have a 1951 St. Joseph's Daily Missal at my Pullman home (I'm at mom's farm for a few days).  When I get back I'll take a look.

The distiction of forms I remember is Low, Cantata, and Solemn.  The Solemn Mass was celebrated with a Deacon and Subdeacon, was sung, had incense, and if it was the principal Mass of the day included the Asperges Rite (sprinkling of the congregation with Holy Water).  If a Deacon and Subdeacon were not available but a choir was a Sung Mass could be celebrated but without the other ceremonials associated with the Solemn Mass, and no incense ~ as has been said, in essence a Low Mass that is sung by the priest and choir (there may have been other minor distinctions.

At one time (as in a long, long time ago) the Solemn Mass was considered the normative form.  The Low Mass was origionally designed as a private Mass said by a priest without a congregation at a side altar of a church.  From my reading this occured because the West had discontinued the practice of priests' concelebrating Mass (as is done in the East) and more requests for Mass intentions were being made than could be satisfied at the Convential Solemn Mass of the day.  I'm supposing this is the reason that if one visits an older parish church built by a religious order where an whole community might be in residence in the rectory, the sides of the church are lined by side altars rather than just shrines.  I am fascinated to someday learn the history surrounding how the Low Mass was permitted to be celebrated publicly.

The High Mass (I've read but I'm away from home so can't go find the reference) is a relatively recent innovation (19th - 20th century).  Because the offices of Deacon and Subdeacon had ceased to exist at the parish level (I'm with H_K on the need to bring back the Minor Orders and the Deaconate as permanent stations of service), outside of a very large urban parish it was increasingly impossible for a parish to have a Solemn Mass as few had the extra priests available to fill in for the Deacon and Subdeacon.  The High Mass is a Sung Mass at which incense is permitted at the prescribed times, and the Asperges Rite is also permitted.  I don't remember which pope instituted it (I'm thinking this predates Pius XII but it might have been him), but it was a way to provide a Mass with a degree of solemnity in parishes that couldn't have the Solemn Mass.
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#54
(04-26-2012, 10:42 AM)Aragon Wrote: Really? Wow. My parish has Solemn Mass every single Sunday and other holy days of obligation. I wasn't aware of how rare that is.

With deacon and subdeacon, every Sunday? That's good, but very unusual indeed, even for trad churches that actually have three clerics.
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#55
(04-26-2012, 11:05 AM)mikemac Wrote:
(04-26-2012, 07:19 AM)JayneK Wrote: In Toronto, the Oratorians celebrate a high Mass every week.  Because there is a community of them, there are multiple priests to draw on.  I think that it would be difficult to manage in a normal parish setting. It is a bit too far for me to go every week but I get to it at least once a month. 

Also the Una Voce people organize a high Mass for various solemnities throughout the year.   If people have not attended a high Mass, I recommend going to one if the opportunity arises. 

Thanks Tim and Jayne.  Jayne is it on King St. West in Toronto where the Oratorians celebrate a high Mass every week?  I guess the Jameson Ave. turn off from the Gardiner Expressway would be the best way to come from Peterborough eh?

No, the Oratorians run two parishes and the high Mass is at St. Vincent de Paul (at 11:30).  You probably would come in the same way but turn left at Ronscevalles.
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#56
(04-26-2012, 05:15 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-26-2012, 11:05 AM)mikemac Wrote:
(04-26-2012, 07:19 AM)JayneK Wrote: In Toronto, the Oratorians celebrate a high Mass every week.  Because there is a community of them, there are multiple priests to draw on.  I think that it would be difficult to manage in a normal parish setting. It is a bit too far for me to go every week but I get to it at least once a month. 

Also the Una Voce people organize a high Mass for various solemnities throughout the year.   If people have not attended a high Mass, I recommend going to one if the opportunity arises. 

Thanks Tim and Jayne.  Jayne is it on King St. West in Toronto where the Oratorians celebrate a high Mass every week?  I guess the Jameson Ave. turn off from the Gardiner Expressway would be the best way to come from Peterborough eh?

No, the Oratorians run two parishes and the high Mass is at St. Vincent de Paul (at 11:30).  You probably would come in the same way but turn left at Ronscevalles.

Oh I see.  It looks like the one on King St. West is the Holy Family Parish and the one on Ronscevalles is St. Vincent de Paul, both run by the Oratorians.
http://www.oratory-toronto.org/spn_holy_...hurch.html
http://www.oratory-toronto.org/spn_st__v...hurch.html

When I manage to make it up there I'll go to St. Vincent de Paul seeing they celebrate a high Mass every week.  From google maps it looks like I'd need to take the same off ramp from the Gardiner no matter which one of the parishes I was going to.  Thanks Jayne.     
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#57
The Shrine of Christ the King in Chicago also has Solemn Mass fairly regularly - they have two priests as well as an Abbe, who I believe is only ordained to the minor orders but serves Solemn Mass as the "straw" subdeacon. When only a Sung Mass is offered, he is usually in choir and chants the Epistle in vested in Surplice.
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#58
At St. V de P, I occasionally see a man whom I think is a seminarian rather than a priest acting as sub-deacon.  He wears a white biretta rather than a black one like the priests do.  Is he a "straw dub-deacon"?
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#59
(04-27-2012, 08:44 AM)JayneK Wrote: At St. V de P, I occasionally see a man whom I think is a seminarian rather than a priest acting as sub-deacon.  He wears a white biretta rather than a black one like the priests do.  Is he a "straw dub-deacon"?

The only people I know who wear white birettas are canons of the Norbertine order. Or, possibly, clerics in tropical countries, since they already wear white cassocks and so forth. Norbertine birettas have four winged peaks, while other birettas usually have three. I think that if a seminarian is already tonsured and can wear the cassock as daily dress, then he can wear the biretta as well, though without the pom.

If he's a seminarian who's already ordained as subdeacon or deacon, then he's not a straw subdeacon. A straw subdeacon is someone who serves in the role but isn't actually ordained one. Similar to the practice of using laymen to serve Mass in general. They're all basically "straw acolytes".
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#60
I used to be afraid the new people would be scared off by the TLM but recently I've had the opportunity to take friends and it was a good experience. I would be wary of taking a first-timer to a quiet Low Mass but in general I say it's better to jump right in.
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