Disagreeing with old friends
#21
not to mention the OT God is our God
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#22
(05-12-2012, 09:23 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:19 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 12:25 PM)James02 Wrote: Go after the atheism first if you must.  Drop the pro-life argument.  I can't see any atheist LOGICALLY supporting the pro-life position.  If an atheist is pro-life, it is because his spiritual side is not completely walled off yet.  But it is an illogical position for them to hold.  There is no right and wrong without God.

I respectfully disagree. Confucius, Buddha, and the ancient Greeks (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, those guys) all developed complex ethical systems without a belief in God (at least not the sort of God that we believe in). And I know many atheists who are every bit as moral as the Catholics I know (more so in some cases). Murder, theft, calumny, adultery, etc. are condemned by almost all human societies, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack of them. And the Old Testament God sanctioned countless atrocities that would horrify just about anyone today. The bolded statement above has no basis in reality as far as I can see.

Partly correct.  The philosophical "Prime Mover" is exactly the sort of God we believe in as Christians.

Not as regards morality. The gods of the Greeks were not moral at all. They were powerful and immortal, but they had all the same moral faults and character flaws as humans. And to some extent, so did the God of the Old Testament.
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#23
(05-12-2012, 09:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:23 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:19 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 12:25 PM)James02 Wrote: Go after the atheism first if you must.  Drop the pro-life argument.  I can't see any atheist LOGICALLY supporting the pro-life position.  If an atheist is pro-life, it is because his spiritual side is not completely walled off yet.  But it is an illogical position for them to hold.  There is no right and wrong without God.

I respectfully disagree. Confucius, Buddha, and the ancient Greeks (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, those guys) all developed complex ethical systems without a belief in God (at least not the sort of God that we believe in). And I know many atheists who are every bit as moral as the Catholics I know (more so in some cases). Murder, theft, calumny, adultery, etc. are condemned by almost all human societies, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack of them. And the Old Testament God sanctioned countless atrocities that would horrify just about anyone today. The bolded statement above has no basis in reality as far as I can see.

Partly correct.  The philosophical "Prime Mover" is exactly the sort of God we believe in as Christians.

Not as regards morality. The gods of the Greeks were not moral at all. They were powerful and immortal, but they had all the same moral faults and character flaws as humans. And to some extent, so did the God of the Old Testament.

This is plainly heretical.
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#24
(05-12-2012, 09:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote: The gods of the Greeks were not moral at all. They were powerful and immortal, but they had all the same moral faults and character flaws as humans. And to some extent, so did the God of the Old Testament.

Grasshopper, you're on the highway to hell.

I used to have a serious problem with Him requiring Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, until I understood He really is a jealous God, and He has every right to be. I couldn't love Him if He wasn't jealous.

I'm sorry to barge in, not having read the entire thread.
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#25
JayneK, to me this sounds like trying to stay friends with someone you were once engaged to, in that, you're trying to remain friends with people you were once walking the same road with in life. You're on different roads now. It's always so much harder to pull back from someone, than to move closer, I find. Once a certain closeness has been enjoyed, the distancing that must result when different paths are chosen is far more painful to endure than having the same distance in a relationship with someone you just met. Here's a Hail Mary for their conversion, and your consolation.  Pray
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#26
Shake the dust off your feet Jayne.  I had a similar situation as Adam with a friend I've known since we were kids.  But my friend thinks communism is the answer.  I finally lost it on him and blurted every un-Godly thing about communism to him that I could think of at the time.  I didn't talk to him for a long time until he contacted me to apologize and say he finally understood my point seeing I'm a practicing Catholic.  He was Baptized a Catholic too but has fallen away long ago.  After he contacted me to apologize it was okay for a while.  We even had some good talks about God and religion.  But he's right back to talking about communism now.  I don't even want to be around him when he's like that, he's too confrontational.  I pray for him but I don't want to associate with him at all.  
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#27
(05-12-2012, 10:50 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote: The gods of the Greeks were not moral at all. They were powerful and immortal, but they had all the same moral faults and character flaws as humans. And to some extent, so did the God of the Old Testament.

Grasshopper, you're on the highway to hell.

I used to have a serious problem with Him requiring Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, until I understood He really is a jealous God, and He has every right to be. I couldn't love Him if He wasn't jealous.

I'm sorry to barge in, not having read the entire thread.

It's fairly easy to explain Abraham and Isaac. I have more of a problem with God commanding the Israelites to occupy the land of Canaan by indiscriminately slaughtering everyone living there, including women, children, babies, and animals -- except in a few cases, it was OK to rape the women instead of killing them. How do you justify that? I'm not picking on you, but how can anyone justify that?
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#28
(05-12-2012, 10:18 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:23 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:19 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 12:25 PM)James02 Wrote: Go after the atheism first if you must.  Drop the pro-life argument.  I can't see any atheist LOGICALLY supporting the pro-life position.  If an atheist is pro-life, it is because his spiritual side is not completely walled off yet.  But it is an illogical position for them to hold.  There is no right and wrong without God.

I respectfully disagree. Confucius, Buddha, and the ancient Greeks (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, those guys) all developed complex ethical systems without a belief in God (at least not the sort of God that we believe in). And I know many atheists who are every bit as moral as the Catholics I know (more so in some cases). Murder, theft, calumny, adultery, etc. are condemned by almost all human societies, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack of them. And the Old Testament God sanctioned countless atrocities that would horrify just about anyone today. The bolded statement above has no basis in reality as far as I can see.

Partly correct.  The philosophical "Prime Mover" is exactly the sort of God we believe in as Christians.

Not as regards morality. The gods of the Greeks were not moral at all. They were powerful and immortal, but they had all the same moral faults and character flaws as humans. And to some extent, so did the God of the Old Testament.

This is plainly heretical.

What are you going to do, excommunicate me?
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#29
(05-12-2012, 09:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:23 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 09:19 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:
(05-12-2012, 12:25 PM)James02 Wrote: Go after the atheism first if you must.  Drop the pro-life argument.  I can't see any atheist LOGICALLY supporting the pro-life position.  If an atheist is pro-life, it is because his spiritual side is not completely walled off yet.  But it is an illogical position for them to hold.  There is no right and wrong without God.

I respectfully disagree. Confucius, Buddha, and the ancient Greeks (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, those guys) all developed complex ethical systems without a belief in God (at least not the sort of God that we believe in). And I know many atheists who are every bit as moral as the Catholics I know (more so in some cases). Murder, theft, calumny, adultery, etc. are condemned by almost all human societies, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack of them. And the Old Testament God sanctioned countless atrocities that would horrify just about anyone today. The bolded statement above has no basis in reality as far as I can see.

Partly correct.  The philosophical "Prime Mover" is exactly the sort of God we believe in as Christians.

Not as regards morality. The gods of the Greeks were not moral at all. They were powerful and immortal, but they had all the same moral faults and character flaws as humans. And to some extent, so did the God of the Old Testament.

But the Monad, which really concerned the Greeks, is morally perfect, being absolute Being and perfect Good.  Try reading the book of Wisdom.  That shows how thinking the OT is immoral is a mistake.
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#30
Praying for you and your friends.
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