ORthodox perspective of Traditionalist Catholics
(05-14-2012, 12:47 PM)INPEFESS Wrote: I disagree with that interpretation of his statement, since it makes his statement contradictory at best. He says that this grace of enlightenment "does not make them formally part of the Church" yet grants them access to salvation anyway. It is tempting to make his statement say what you have made it say, but if you do that then the statement makes no sense, since it contradicts itself. It says this enlightening grace gives them access to salvation via their own particular circumstances without them being formally a part of the Church. You argue that his statement says that "they have access to salvation 'in Christ' (which is just another way of saying The Church)," but that is an interpolation. He never actually said that; in fact, his words preclude that interpretation since he says that this access to salvation "in Christ" via this circumstantial grace does not make them formally part of the Church. In other words, they can be saved by Christ without being in His Church. It sees that the way you reached your interpretation is by reordering the points in his statement: you placed "is not a formal member of the Church" first and then put "they have access to salvation 'in Christ' (which is just another way of saying The Church)" last. But that is not the order in which he presented his statements. If he did, it would be a self-contradiction. He argues that they have access to salvation "in Christ" first and then qualifies it by adding that they are not formally part of the Church. The order you have given it renders it a contradiction at best and a reflection of the Modernist interpretation of EENS as "salvation through the Church" as opposed to "salvation in the Church" at worst.

JPII thinks phenomenologically.  Everything is the relationship and the acting person with him.  Look at the paragraph prior to the one cited in Redemptoris Missio,  He points out that the Church is vehicle that Christ has chosen to carry out his salvific work.  He's pointing out that God gives everyone the grace to enter the Church somehow even though the Church hasn't penetrated to every individual.  His talk of God's grace accomodating itself to their material circumstances doesn't rule out the natural conclusion, that that grace alters the persons material circumstances in their membership in the Church if they choose to cooperate with the grace offered. 

"9. The first beneficiary of salvation is the Church. Christ won the Church for himself at the price of his own blood and made the Church his co-worker in the salvation of the world. Indeed, Christ dwells within the Church. She is his Bride. It is he who causes her to grow. He carries out his mission through her.

The Council makes frequent reference to the Church's role in the salvation of mankind. While acknowledging that God loves all people and grants them the possibility of being saved (cf. l Tm 2:4),15 the Church believes that God has established Christ as the one mediator and that she herself has been established as the universal sacrament of salvation. 16 "To this catholic unity of the people of God, therefore,...all are called, and they belong to it or are ordered to it in various ways, whether they be Catholic faithful or others who believe in Christ or finally all people everywhere who by the grace of God are called to salvation."17 It is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for salvation. Both these truths help us to understand the one mystery of salvation, so that we can come to know God's mercy and our own responsibility. Salvation, which always remains a gift of the Holy Spirit, requires man's cooperation, both to save himself and to save others. This is God's will, and this is why he established the Church and made her a part of his plan of salvation. Referring to "this messianic people," the Council says; "It has been set up by Christ as a communion of life, love and truth; by him too it is taken up as the instrument of salvation for all, and sent on a mission to the whole world as the light of the world and the salt of the earth."18"


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Re: ORthodox perspective of Traditionalist Catholics - by Gerard - 05-14-2012, 02:21 PM

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