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The SSPX/Rome Official Poll
#51
(05-14-2012, 02:02 PM)dueSicile Wrote:
(05-14-2012, 01:58 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(05-14-2012, 01:55 PM)dueSicile Wrote:
(05-14-2012, 01:51 PM)Parmandur Wrote: That was not what the excommunication was about, obviously.

Do you think the excommunications were, in fact, incurred? I think they were persecuted soley for their adherence to the Traditional Mass.

Well, the Vatican has taken away the penalties of excommunication, but the Pope was also fairly clearly not annulling them, so that the excommunications happened remain as a fact of canon law.  The excommunications happened because ++Lefebvre committed an objective act of schism, may God have mercy on his soul.  He was ordered not to consecrate bishops, and given canon law he had no right to do so, and every duty to listen to the Pope.  To say it is because of adherence to the Mass is ahistorical.

I'll have to disagree with you there.

You can disagree all you want.  They were objectively excommunicated, and the Vatican's light, gentle handling of the SSPX is frankly a symptom of Modernism as much as anything.
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#52
If there wasn't modernism, the FSSPX wouldn't have formed in the first place.
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#53
(05-14-2012, 02:06 PM)dueSicile Wrote:
(05-14-2012, 02:01 PM)Parmandur Wrote: And it should be noted that ++Lefebvre remains excommunicated to this day.  We may pray and hope that this will get sorted out in time, but the case of Savonarola does not inspire much hope for the late Archbishop.

http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q11_archbi...icated.htm

I'm not trying to get into an argument, but here is why I think he wasn't.

OK, but an opinion piece on the SSPX site does not determine whether excommunication exists.  The Pope does, and your case is weak on that point.
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#54
(05-14-2012, 02:08 PM)dueSicile Wrote: If there wasn't modernism, the FSSPX wouldn't have formed in the first place.

Yes, irony abounds.  The SSPX couldn't exists without Modernism, on multiple levels.
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#55
. double post
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#56
That pope also sinned against the 1st commandment publicly by takeing part in pagan ceremonies. He wasnt infallible.
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#57
(05-14-2012, 02:12 PM)dueSicile Wrote:
(05-14-2012, 02:09 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(05-14-2012, 02:06 PM)dueSicile Wrote:
(05-14-2012, 02:01 PM)Parmandur Wrote: And it should be noted that ++Lefebvre remains excommunicated to this day.  We may pray and hope that this will get sorted out in time, but the case of Savonarola does not inspire much hope for the late Archbishop.

http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q11_archbi...icated.htm

I'm not trying to get into an argument, but here is why I think he wasn't.

OK, but an opinion piece on the SSPX site does not determine whether excommunication exists.  The Pope does, and your case is weak on that point.

That pope also sinned against the 1st commandment by takeing part in pagan ceremonies. He wasnt infallible.

So, two wrongs make a right?  When it comes to excommunication, infallibility is not what matters, jurisdiction is.  Guess what?  The Pope has jurisdiction over the SSPX.  It might be that a future Pope will annul the excommunication, but that does not justify it in the here and now, when the rightful authority has declared it to be so.
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#58
(05-14-2012, 02:15 PM)Parmandur Wrote: So, two wrongs make a right?  When it comes to excommunication, infallibility is not what matters, jurisdiction is.  Guess what?  The Pope has jurisdiction over the SSPX.  It might be that a future Pope will annul the excommunication, but that does not justify it in the here and now, when the rightful authority has declared it to be so.

If you say so.

Archbishop LeFebvre, Ora Pro Nobis. The man was clearly a Saint.
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#59
It is also important to note that even though the four bishops excommunication was lifted, they remain suspended from all priestly faculties.  Which means every time they celebrate the Mass publicly, they commit a mortal sin.  That's Tradition.  That Rome remains gentle and accommodating, as I said, is a sign of the weakness in the modern Church,.
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#60
(05-14-2012, 02:16 PM)dueSicile Wrote:
(05-14-2012, 02:15 PM)Parmandur Wrote: So, two wrongs make a right?  When it comes to excommunication, infallibility is not what matters, jurisdiction is.  Guess what?  The Pope has jurisdiction over the SSPX.  It might be that a future Pope will annul the excommunication, but that does not justify it in the here and now, when the rightful authority has declared it to be so.

If you say so.

Archbishop LeFebvre, Ora Pro Nobis. The man was clearly a Saint.

Not nearly as clearly as Savonarola, who also remains excommunicated over 500 years later.  That doesn't matter.  The Pope has the authority to bind and to loose.
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