Pope Calling Our Bluff?
#1
With the recent events with SSPX, I think a new debate about traditionalism has come to the fore. Something I want to present for discussion is the idea, which I think is the most important one to consider, that Benedict XVI has presented an ultimatum to the SSPX. And if that is the case, which it certainly appears so from Bishop Fellay's statements, the Pope is calling us out to see if we really are under him as Pope. Because if he is Pope, he should be able to make have his demands fulfilled by the SSPX when no compromise of faith or governance is required of the SSPX. To resist would be tantamount to being de facto sedevacantist. But it seems that the position the SSPX/Rome discussion has got to is: Where do you really stand on the question of my authority. That is a very tough move on the part of this Pope. I mean, I can understand my priest resisting the local bishop, even if there were not compromise of faith of governance. I can because of the local level, and how the priests can resort to another bishop to "claim" jurisdiction, or what-not. But the man on top has made the call. In addition I have been reading some sedevacantists' writings, and to be quite honest, some of the people not keen on the expected deal talks in the very same language as the sedes. So I am wondering. Do you think the Pope is within rights to make his demand? Do you think the SSPX has to obey the Pope if there is no compromise of faith and governance (even taking into account that the disagreements of VII etc are not resolved yet)?
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#2
A "tough" move?

I'd personally give him more credit if he made tough moves against heretics posing as Catholics, against ecumenism, etc. But, alas, we all know we've really past the point of no return now.

It's true that the SSPX will be forced to accept the deal if they don't wish to become sedevacantists de jure but that will probably mean the end of Traditional Catholicism, if we don't consider the sede independent groups.
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#3
(05-15-2012, 10:42 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: With the recent events with SSPX, I think a new debate about traditionalism has come to the fore. Something I want to present for discussion is the idea, which I think is the most important one to consider, that Benedict XVI has presented an ultimatum to the SSPX. And if that is the case, which it certainly appears so from Bishop Fellay's statements, the Pope is calling us out to see if we really are under him as Pope. Because if he is Pope, he should be able to make have his demands fulfilled by the SSPX when no compromise of faith or governance is required of the SSPX. To resist would be tantamount to being de facto sedevacantist. But it seems that the position the SSPX/Rome discussion has got to is: Where do you really stand on the question of my authority. That is a very tough move on the part of this Pope. I mean, I can understand my priest resisting the local bishop, even if there were not compromise of faith of governance. I can because of the local level, and how the priests can resort to another bishop to "claim" jurisdiction, or what-not. But the man on top has made the call. In addition I have been reading some sedevacantists' writings, and to be quite honest, some of the people not keen on the expected deal talks in the very same language as the sedes. So I am wondering. Do you think the Pope is within rights to make his demand? Do you think the SSPX has to obey the Pope if there is no compromise of faith and governance (even taking into account that the disagreements of VII etc are not resolved yet)?

Sedevacantist, sedevacantist, sedevacantist! Give it a rest.
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#4
I
(05-15-2012, 10:46 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: A "tough" move?

I'd personally give him more credit if he made tough moves against heretics posing as Catholics, against ecumenism

I agree with what Vetus wrote here. Why is it that the Pope only wants to make "tough" moves or assert his supreme authority over Traditional groups, rather than all of the other garbage pretending to be Catholicism, over Bishops who do not have the Faith, so on and so forth.
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#5
Haven't there been several stories recently about crackdowns on liberals?
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#6
(05-15-2012, 10:59 PM)MRose Wrote: I
(05-15-2012, 10:46 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: A "tough" move?

I'd personally give him more credit if he made tough moves against heretics posing as Catholics, against ecumenism

I agree with what Vetus wrote here. Why is it that the Pope only wants to make "tough" moves or assert his supreme authority over Traditional groups, rather than all of the other garbage pretending to be Catholicism, over Bishops who do not have the Faith, so on and so forth.

Because he's the pope and he can do what he damn well pleases and doesn't need advice from pseudo-anonymous interwebbers named Vetus.

That's why.  :tiphat:
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#7
Because he's the pope and he can cover up for paedophiles and preach universalism all he damn wants! "Vicar of Christ makes right," period.

People like Bombay thank that. Sometimes thinking too much is just dangerous and inconvenient.
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#8
(05-15-2012, 11:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Because he's the pope and he can cover up for paedophiles and preach universalism all he damn wants! "Vicar of Christ makes right," period.

People like Bombay thank that. Sometimes thinking too much is just dangerous and inconvenient.

Strawman.  But nice try.  :tiphat:
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#9
(05-15-2012, 11:05 PM)DrBombay Wrote:
(05-15-2012, 10:59 PM)MRose Wrote: I
(05-15-2012, 10:46 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: A "tough" move?

I'd personally give him more credit if he made tough moves against heretics posing as Catholics, against ecumenism

I agree with what Vetus wrote here. Why is it that the Pope only wants to make "tough" moves or assert his supreme authority over Traditional groups, rather than all of the other garbage pretending to be Catholicism, over Bishops who do not have the Faith, so on and so forth.

Because he's the pope and he can do what he damn well pleases and doesn't need advice from pseudo-anonymous interwebbers named Vetus.

That's why.  :tiphat:

I'm with Doc here.  The "whiny little kid getting picked on at the playground attitude" is overused and getting really old.  
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#10
(05-15-2012, 11:39 PM)DrBombay Wrote:
(05-15-2012, 11:37 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: Because he's the pope and he can cover up for paedophiles and preach universalism all he damn wants! "Vicar of Christ makes right," period.

People like Bombay thank that. Sometimes thinking too much is just dangerous and inconvenient.

Strawman.  But nice try.   :tiphat:

You call it "strawman", which must be the very definition of irony coming from you, but I call it telling it like it is.

I'm not the sort that likes to bury his head in the sand, even if that made me feel pious inside.
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