Question: Where is the devil?
#11
(05-16-2012, 06:47 PM)Walty Wrote: Demons are said to prowl the world.  After an exorcism, they are sent back down to hell, where they are chained for awhile until they eventually make their way back to earth.

If we think of hell as more of a state of being and less of a place, we can imagine how Satan is both in hell and prowling about earth.  We have to remember that Satan is the Prince of the World.  The world is fallen in sin, and thus it is won to Satan.  The pockets of the presence of the Church are mere sanctuaries until the New Jerusalem and the sanctification of the entire world.

I think the correct, if oversimplified answer, is that he is in both places.

Just to clarify, when a demon is "sent back down to hell" it shouldn't be understood that he left hell.  He takes hell with him wherever he goes, it's as much a part of him (in his mind and his every thought) as the elect who are completely and utterly consumed by love for God.  So sending a demon back to hell is exactly what an exorcism does, but the devil never "left" hell in the first place. 
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#12
(05-18-2012, 09:08 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(05-16-2012, 06:47 PM)Walty Wrote: Demons are said to prowl the world.  After an exorcism, they are sent back down to hell, where they are chained for awhile until they eventually make their way back to earth.

If we think of hell as more of a state of being and less of a place, we can imagine how Satan is both in hell and prowling about earth.  We have to remember that Satan is the Prince of the World.  The world is fallen in sin, and thus it is won to Satan.  The pockets of the presence of the Church are mere sanctuaries until the New Jerusalem and the sanctification of the entire world.

I think the correct, if oversimplified answer, is that he is in both places.

Just to clarify, when a demon is "sent back down to hell" it shouldn't be understood that he left hell.  He takes hell with him wherever he goes, it's as much a part of him (in his mind and his every thought) as the elect who are completely and utterly consumed by love for God.  So sending a demon back to hell is exactly what an exorcism does, but the devil never "left" hell in the first place. 

True, but there must be some lessening of their burdens when they possess someone.  They show a great fear and tremble before the priest when he tells them he is sending them back to their chains.  The often beg that he not send them back.
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#13
Not to add fuel to the fire, but St. Thomas specifically addresses the question of whether an angel can be two places at once, with the negative.

http://newadvent.org/summa/1052.htm#article2
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#14
(05-18-2012, 09:04 AM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(05-18-2012, 06:02 AM)JMartyr Wrote: What about Our Lady of Fatima? She showed them Hell where "poor sinners go." It is a place.

Any presentation to us humans will be in terms we understand. Even illumination in the mind would be formed in terms we understand, or rather we formulate them in those terms in order to think about them. Angels are immaterial beings. Hell (apparently) has no material bodies in it. Any vision of hell was an illumination from God put in terms we can understand. So we see "place" and "flames" and "people descending" etc. How do you see a soul descending into hell, when the soul and the demons and (apparently) the place itself are all immaterial? I think these are cases of analogistic statement of experienced truths. St Paul when ascending to heaven did not know if he was in the body or out of the body. Why? Because he was on an immaterial plane. His body was still somewhere. but where? In the church at prayer? With him in heaven, but with his soul so illumined that the material melted away? Padre Pio too said he had no explanation how he achieved superhuman miracles with his body, like bilocation. We need to be literal with the truth, but understand that the truth can be clothed in language which is analogistic and sometimes even symbolic. Demons, hell, and Satan are real. Possession, obsession, and temptation are real. But what we see is an interaction with a plane we do not fully understand. The relation between the material and the immaterial is highly mysterious to us. We still do not fully understand how we interact with our own souls, even though we are so close to them that we can't even distinguish ourselves from them (even though I just said my own soul, as though it were separate from me typing right now). I think we need to properly respect the place of analogistic statement and understanding in terms of the Faith, but also realize that they are modes of understanding which are presented subjectively for the aid of the one receiving them. Hell is just as much present in a person committing a mortal sin, as it is in the fiery place we know as hell. Hell is certainly a place, because it is not infinite (meaning that not everyone is there), but to extrapolate notions about "place" and put all kinds of human analogy over it does not acknowledge the fullness of horror that hell is. When we die, I think we will clearly understand "where" hell is, but now I think the idea of "place" to us is somewhat limiting and deceptive, as though hell were in the middle of the earth. I prefer to understand where hell is when I am in it. In the presence of my own sin, or witnessing the sins of others. That's the most stark presence of hell in my view.
If Christ ascended bodily into heaven why cant the damned be sent bodily into hell. Further why couldnt hell actually be in the center of the earth?
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