Modernist Fr. Robert Barron placed in charge of Chicago Seminary
#61
Quote:In 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9, scripture tells us that God wills all to be saved.  Damnation comes through the reprobate refusing the grace of salvation, and while I don't buy the empty Hell argument, from scriptural argument it can't be said that we ought not to hope for what God wishes, that is for all to be saved.  Hope is different than faith.  We believe in Hell, but nobody is beyond hope of God's grace.

We know infallibly that Judas is in Hell: "Woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24 ).

We know infallibly that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are in hell: "As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities...were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 1:7).

We know infallibly that there are more damned than saved: "Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)


Fr. Barron on Hell:
His own view begins at 5:26


Fr. Barron: "We have to accept the possibility of hell; we have to accept the existence of it as a possibility because of human freedom. But are any human beings in hell? We don't know. We don't know! the Church has never declared on that subject. And we may pray that all be saved, and even reasonably hope that all people will be saved" (6:26).

Fr. Barron's opinions are obviously heretical, as were Balthasar's, whose position he is taking. I am only quoting scripture, which we all accept as inerrant and part of the Deposit of the Faith. Incidentally, and in the context of Fatima, Fr. Barron's limp-wristed version of hell echo's that of anti-Fatimist Fr. Dhanis: Hell, oh, it's just a place where you go sit in the corner and feel alone! No big deal. Hell Exists, and We Could Go There.

Fr. Barron is correct when he says "the Church has never declared on that subject." It is true (as far as I know) that the solemn magisterium has never been invoked to infallibly define that people are in hell. But he is heretical in insinuating that the Church teaches we cannot know that people are in hell. The ordinary universal magisterium, which is infallible, teaches that people are in hell. The Church has always taught that, everywhere and since the beginning. It's in the epistles and straight from the words of Christ. Why would a pope ever need to define something so obvious?
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#62
(05-24-2012, 10:17 PM)charlesh Wrote:
Quote:In 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9, scripture tells us that God wills all to be saved.  Damnation comes through the reprobate refusing the grace of salvation, and while I don't buy the empty Hell argument, from scriptural argument it can't be said that we ought not to hope for what God wishes, that is for all to be saved.  Hope is different than faith.  We believe in Hell, but nobody is beyond hope of God's grace.

We know infallibly that Judas is in Hell: "Woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24 ).

We know infallibly that the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are in hell: "As Sodom and Gomorrha, and the neighbouring cities...were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 1:7).

We know infallibly that there are more damned than saved: "Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" (Matthew 7:13-14)


Fr. Barron on Hell:
His own view begins at 5:26


Fr. Barron: "We have to accept the possibility of hell; we have to accept the existence of it as a possibility because of human freedom. But are any human beings in hell? We don't know. We don't know! the Church has never declared on that subject. And we may pray that all be saved, and even reasonably hope that all people will be saved" (6:26).

Fr. Barron's opinions are obviously heretical, as were Balthasar's, whose position he is taking. I am only quoting scripture, which we all accept as inerrant and part of the Deposit of the Faith. Incidentally, and in the context of Fatima, Fr. Barron's limp-wristed version of hell echo's that of anti-Fatimist Fr. Dhanis: Hell, oh, it's just a place where you go sit in the corner and feel alone! No big deal. Hell Exists, and We Could Go There.

Fr. Barron is correct when he says "the Church has never declared on that subject." It is true (as far as I know) that the solemn magisterium has never been invoked to infallibly define that people are in hell. But he is heretical in insinuating that the Church teaches we cannot know that people are in hell. The ordinary universal magisterium, which is infallible, teaches that people are in hell. The Church has always taught that, everywhere and since the beginning. It's in the epistles and straight from the words of Christ. Why would a pope ever need to define something so obvious?

The Church HAS declared this, though - you proved that at the outset of your post! The Church gave us the Scriptures, they come from and belong to the Church, and they are inerrant and infallible.
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#63
Yes, but not directly. No pope has ever said, "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that there is at least one sad, listless person  :( in hell suffering the intolerable torture of melancholy, loneliness, and ennui  :( <----[oop! that makes 2! there could never be THAT MANY in hell!]; is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful, and I'm serious this time."

That scripture is inerrant is de fide, of course. I wonder how Fr. Barron twists the words of Christ to fit Balthasar's gospel. Semitic exaggeration, no doubt. But what about St. Jude? What genre of literature would allow us to discard the witness of poor forgotten St. Jude? Mad Libs? That works! So the original actually read:

"As [ANCIENT METROPOLIS], and the neighbouring cities...were [VERB IN PAST PARTICIPLE IN PASSIVE VOICE], suffering the punishment of [MASS NOUN]."

Some benighted medieval copyist, no doubt, actually took it serious and filled it in. But as his quaint imagery was too childish, the homophobic grand inquisitor that was torturing him extracted from him the darker, more pessimistic text which has come down to us.
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#64
(05-25-2012, 03:02 AM)charlesh Wrote: Yes, but not directly. No pope has ever said, "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that there is at least one sad, listless person  :( in hell suffering the intolerable torture of melancholy, loneliness, and ennui  :( <----[oop! that makes 2! there could never be THAT MANY in hell!]; is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful, and I'm serious this time."

That scripture is inerrant is de fide, of course. I wonder how Fr. Barron twists the words of Christ to fit Balthasar's gospel. Semitic exaggeration, no doubt. But what about St. Jude? What genre of literature would allow us to discard the witness of poor forgotten St. Jude? Mad Libs? That works! So the original actually read:

"As [ANCIENT METROPOLIS], and the neighbouring cities...were [VERB IN PAST PARTICIPLE IN PASSIVE VOICE], suffering the punishment of [MASS NOUN]."

Some benighted medieval copyist, no doubt, actually took it serious and filled it in. But as his quaint imagery was too childish, the homophobic grand inquisitor that was torturing him extracted from him the darker, more pessimistic text which has come down to us.
LOL
Very true!!
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