Offertory dropped, what gives?
#1
So I have read Dom Prosper Gueranger's The Holy Mass and on his section on the offertory he talks about how important the offertory was and that the prayer goes back to at least the 700's. So my question is why did the Vatican II liturgical vandals decide to completely drop it in place of "the preparation of the Gifts"? Is it because this is one of the things the Protestant heretics hated the most (the offering of sacrifice) and Pope Paul VI did anything he could to placate them? Or is there some other reason. The only time I asked a Priest about this he was a NO Priest and said the prayer only went back to 1600 and was unnecessary which of course is a lie. So why would this most Catholic part of the Mass be dropped?
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#2
I don't know what the answer is, but just about any time I am at a NO Mass, when we get to the Preparation of the Gifts, I find myself reacting, "What were they thinking?!!"  It just feels so very wrong.  This is my biggest problem with the NO.  I can cope without the prayers at the foot of the Altar.  I can deal with Mass in the vernacular.  I can overlook the loss of the Last Gospel.  But I just can't get past the missing Offertory.
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#3
Well, is an offertory necessary for a commemorative meal?
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#4
(06-09-2012, 04:59 PM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: Is it because this is one of the things the Protestant heretics hated the most (the offering of sacrifice) and Pope Paul VI did anything he could to placate them?

I'll never understand why the Pope of Rome would have ever felt the need to placate Protestants in the first place. Paul VI was an Italian who probably saw, like, 10 Protestants his entire life; most of whom were invited by him to work on the new Mass. What the hell?
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#5
I imagine it was a misguided (or, deliberately destructive) attempt to mimic the ancient practice where the liturgy was practices in private homes, rather than in a consecrated building.

People had to supply the bread and wine. Now, we have dedicated buildings (churches) and a dedicated community of the faithful.

I am not a liturgist and I do not want to be too expressive in my limited knowledge, but it looks like emulation of a practice which was done because of limitations of the time.

The person presenting the gifts is not actually giving a gift, or actually presenting them. They do not, as far as I know, rely on individuals to provide the bread and wine used. There are religious communities which do that.
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#6
(06-09-2012, 05:10 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Well, is an offertory necessary for a commemorative meal?

and blessed be God forever.
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#7
(06-09-2012, 05:10 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Well, is an offertory necessary for a commemorative meal?

Bingo.
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#8
The old offertory was dropped for ecumenical reasons: in order to make the new Mass more palatable to Protestant sensitivies. In any case, it actually failed to please both Catholics and Protestants alike.

That being said, the offertory itself is not strictly necessary for the validity of the mass. There was no offertory as we know it today in the first few centuries of Christendom.
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#9
(06-09-2012, 07:02 PM)Vetus Ordo Wrote: That being said, the offertory itself is not strictly necessary for the validity of the mass. There was no offertory as we know it today in the first few centuries of Christendom.

That is the excuse for the change I think. The appeal to antiquity. There must be a logical fallacy based on this when it is in fact a ploy to introduce novelty by justifying superficial resemblance to an ancient practice.
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#10
I dub it the "Simia Facit" logical fallacy. Imitation as an excuse to innovate.
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