Catholicism in Mexico
#31
Catechesis for the most part has been horrible the last fifty years. There are some people who, in spite of attending "Catholic" school and even occasionally attending the local Novus Ordo, do not even know basic tenets of the Faith.
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#32
(06-11-2012, 11:49 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I could be overstepping my bounds, but I don't think the Latin Americans were very well catechized to begin with. Else why would so many of them (1) mingle their Catholic traditions with pagan superstition and/or (2) leave the church so easily for the evangelical camps?

When I used to work at the church supply store, there were Mexicans and Guatemalans in the neighborhood who came to the store. They bought a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe, a rosary, and when checking out we engaged in small talk. Where do you go to church? I was suprised that many named Pentecostal and non-demoninational churches in the area. But sometimes they went to St. So-and-So too, a Catholic parish. They saw nothing problematic with this, at least that's how I perceived it.

Stop looking at this as if the Church exists in a vacuum.  Mexico's culture may identify with Catholicism, but the government has been taking steps to suppress it since the beginning of the 20th century.  Priests were not allowed to wear their clerical garb in public for decades.  Even now, it's unusual to see a priest even in modern clerics, much less a cassock.  The government forbid the Church from owning land the public universities were overrun with communist professors in the 80s, and probably before. The evangelica churches were INVITED by the mexicana government in order to dilute the power of Catholicism.  The Masons still exist and still are anti-Catholic, although not as openly as during the Cristero wars.

The evangelical churches provide their new members with financial "assistance."  They tell them they can re-marry even if they're divorced without a Catholic annulment.  They tell them, and this is important -- that they can still go to the Catholic Church for their favorite feasts -- they act to a certain extent, as if it's all the same, for the sake of roping in those Catholics who hesitate because they want to keep their devotion to Our Lady.  They aren't well-catechized, abnd for many, their Catholicism was only a veneer to be socially acceptable, so they switch sides easily.  Hey, these folks give you money and keep your kids occupied without charge (at first) -- so why go to the Catholic Church, which is always asking for money, instead of this one, which will GIVE you money!







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#33
Wherever Catholicism has traditionally reigned without any challenge (Southern Europe, Latin America, etc.), catechesis has always been poor among the people. This is an observable fact that can't be explained away just by cultural differences or economical aspects: it's something quintessential to the Church's own approach. The same happens with the Orthodox in Eastern Europe and elsewhere who are extremely superstitious. Religion is kept at a superficial level because there's no need to dig it deeper, there's no-one challenging it.

Catechesis is substantially better in those places where Catholicism is not on the social frontseat and is challenged by Protestantism like in the case of the United States. This situation forces the Church to make a huge investment on catechesis and apologetics in order not to lose parishioners and social influence.
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#34
(06-11-2012, 11:49 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: I could be overstepping my bounds, but I don't think the Latin Americans were very well catechized to begin with. Else why would so many of them (1) mingle their Catholic traditions with pagan superstition and/or (2) leave the church so easily for the evangelical camps?

When I used to work at the church supply store, there were Mexicans and Guatemalans in the neighborhood who came to the store. They bought a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe, a rosary, and when checking out we engaged in small talk. Where do you go to church? I was suprised that many named Pentecostal and non-demoninational churches in the area. But sometimes they went to St. So-and-So too, a Catholic parish. They saw nothing problematic with this, at least that's how I perceived it.
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I think this goes to Vetus' point; pray, pay, and obey. SGC is probably right observing that they were not well Catechized, especially in the wake of Vatican II. But, and ths seems to be missing in the NO and the VO, namely any reliance on the Holy Ghost. Not every one is an intelluctual scholastic, nor can they be. Many were and are illiterate and complex logical reasoning is way over their heads. Enter the Holy Ghost, working with the simple but earnest and pious. God shows his Truth to the little ones to confound the wise, doesn't just apply to Saints raised to the Altar.

It didn't take a genius to see something very different was going on after Vatican II. It wasn't just the Mexicans, in the US gajillions slowly left. Today that's attributed to them being rebellious sexual liberated heretics. I strongly disagree. I knew a priest that left and married a ex-nun.
This was more like he couldn't face the changes and he left, along the way finding a similar thinking religious woman he married. Frankly the rebellious sexual liberated heretics stayed to ruin the Church. I good read here is Libido Dominandi by E. Michael Jones on this.

The faithful are not called to resolve the mess, that's the Bishop's position. We are called to pray, which God Almighty, especially in times of Apostasy, in His infinite Wisdom, has given as a means to pettition over these problems. Deciphering all of the nuances and listening to various arguments only confuses and most people don't have the equipment to stay on the course. Yes the libs condescension is pretty much on target on this one point. And the priests making videos, or writing books, on their positions for the faithful, are doing exactly as the modernists, they are agents of change.

I have coined the phrase the devil knows how to work both sides of the street. This is where we are at, the devil is working both sides for the middle. The NO liberal modernists are passing away, and in their place the new conservatives are taking their place. it's Hegelian, thesis (1950 catholicism), antithesis (the last forty or so years), and now synthesis (new conservatives, taking bits and pieces of 1950 , and discarding some of the antithesis, resulting in the current.)

Trads, are fish of a different species. They have bored into the problems and in doing so have investigated every thing written since the Didache.
If the Church in future must teach every nuance contained in the body of Catholic writing and thought, it's over. If this continues Tradom will become the equivalent of the Talmudic Jews debating endlessly and as a result distancing themselves from God as the rabbis have done. I smell the whiffs of the smoke of Satan here, too. All of the silliness added on to Tradition to make it more difficult, like espousing the High Mass sung by semi-professionals as the only worthy Mass. It's an elite thing, and Jesus smacked them a good one two thousand years ago. 

I have no answer, nor a special way to cope, but this morning at Lauds these words have seared in my head.

Domine vim patior, responde pro me. Quid dicam, aut quid respondebit michi, cum ipsi feceit.

Lord, I suffer violence, answer thou for me. What shall I say, or what shall he answer for me, whereas he himself hath done it?

tim
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#35
(06-12-2012, 12:16 PM)Tim Wrote: I think this goes to Vetus' point; pray, pay, and obey. SGC is probably right observing that they were not well Catechized, especially in the wake of Vatican II. But, and ths seems to be missing in the NO and the VO, namely any reliance on the Holy Ghost. Not every one is an intelluctual scholastic, nor can they be. Many were and are illiterate and complex logical reasoning is way over their heads. Enter the Holy Ghost, working with the simple but earnest and pious. God shows his Truth to the little ones to confound the wise, doesn't just apply to Saints raised to the Altar.


That's exactly right, Tim. I don't think my great grandparents (German Americans) were very well catechized. They were simple people who had a 4th grade education. What they DID have was faith in what they knew, devotion, and loyalty to the church. I didn't mean to lump all Hispanics together or treat the church like it was in a vacuum.  I do think most of us are in our own little world, however. I was in my own little world working at the church supply store and observing the Hispanics who live in my own neighborhood. They were wonderful people, truly living the faith as they understood it.
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#36
Southern California is a very unique place in regards to religion. There are so many pseudo Catholic cults here and many straight-forward Prot denominations all within blocks of eachother. Orange, CA has a very small Old Town and there has to be at least 12 different prot buildings all within 1000 ft of eachother. Mexicans get tattoos of rosaries that don't even have the correct amount of beads! All of these confused souls pull each other in to their own churches and then they teach their families what they learned from each and every one.
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