Incorrupt??
#61
(06-17-2012, 05:13 PM)voxxpopulisuxx Wrote: Really :eyeroll: go ahead go get some dirt and create a beating heart...this is the arrogant horseshit you guys spew, thats why I dont mind flinging your steaming pomposity right back at you.

There's nothing arrogant about it.  In a sentimental sense, yes, the fact that your heart is beating is a miracle.  But there is nothing unnatural about your heart still beating.  What I meant was, the Vatican wouldn't consider your heart to still be beating as evidence in an investigation of a miracle.  If your heart were still beating separated from your body for more than a few minutes, in sub-zero temperatures and yet your heart stayed warm and beating at a healthy rate, then that would be miraculous in more than a sentimental sense.

And stop being silly.  The fact that I can't create life from dirt doesn't mean that life itself is a miracle.  If one person can't physically shoot milk eight feet out of their tear duct, does that mean it is a miracle when you find the random person who can?  No, because it can be explained by completely natural means.  You talk about us spewing our arrogant horseshit, but it is really you who are arrogant who have the audacity to condemn others as heretics all because you believe every purported 'miracle' that flies under your nose without any rational discrimination whatsoever.  The fact that we throw in a dose of healthy skepticism does not make us arrogant.
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#62
(06-17-2012, 08:21 PM)Melkite Wrote: There's nothing arrogant about it.  In a sentimental sense, yes, the fact that your heart is beating is a miracle.  But there is nothing unnatural about your heart still beating.  What I meant was, the Vatican wouldn't consider your heart to still be beating as evidence in an investigation of a miracle.  If your heart were still beating separated from your body for more than a few minutes, in sub-zero temperatures and yet your heart stayed warm and beating at a healthy rate, then that would be miraculous in more than a sentimental sense.

So, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? ;)

Quote:And stop being silly.  The fact that I can't create life from dirt doesn't mean that life itself is a miracle.  If one person can't physically shoot milk eight feet out of their tear duct, does that mean it is a miracle when you find the random person who can?  No, because it can be explained by completely natural means.  You talk about us spewing our arrogant horseshit, but it is really you who are arrogant who have the audacity to condemn others as heretics all because you believe every purported 'miracle' that flies under your nose without any rational discrimination whatsoever.  The fact that we throw in a dose of healthy skepticism does not make us arrogant.

Seeing the active hand of God in things which others find unimpressive is perhaps a gift. I'm sure it is understood that the heart is "natural", but that nature itself is a direct creation of God.

On the other hand, failing to see the hand of God anywhere is disturbing.
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#63
(06-17-2012, 08:41 PM)Rosarium Wrote: Seeing the active hand of God in things which others find unimpressive is perhaps a gift. I'm sure it is understood that the heart is "natural", but that nature itself is a direct creation of God.

On the other hand, failing to see the hand of God anywhere is disturbing.

Which is why I agreed it is a miracle in a sentimental sense.  In that sense, all of existence is truly a miracle. 
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#64
(06-17-2012, 08:55 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(06-17-2012, 08:41 PM)Rosarium Wrote: Seeing the active hand of God in things which others find unimpressive is perhaps a gift. I'm sure it is understood that the heart is "natural", but that nature itself is a direct creation of God.

On the other hand, failing to see the hand of God anywhere is disturbing.

Which is why I agreed it is a miracle in a sentimental sense.  In that sense, all of existence is truly a miracle. 
That is not what sentimental means I think.
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#65
There are many (if not most) saints whose bodies are not incorrupt, and there are non-Catholics whose bodies are perfectly preserved. such as the case of Medgar Evers. When his body was exhumed 30 some years after he died, it was in perfect shape. I saw a photo of it in a forensic book. It shocked me that a non-Catholic would be incorrupt and sort of threw the others in doubt.
I don't know.
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#66
sentimentalism is code for crude...un intellectual and ignorant. so spare me the high horse attitude.........I am not sentimental melkite....I am in adorable Love with My God who amazes me every second...and I get angry at clods who throw around materialist arguments that are NOT healthy skepticism. If the Church approves it...one of the blessings of that is I dont NEED to be skeptical....and in this world where there are skeptics under every rock and every tree.....I find great happiness in knowing "if the church approves it...that settles it for me". You guys never seem to tire of your self serving skepticism.
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#67
Sentimentalism would be liking the Church because it reminds you of your fond memories of your loved grandmother who brought you to mass or something.

In this case, I think the word is being misused.

Seeing life as a natural occurrence  in this world is common because it is common on earth, but in reality, the universe is almost wholly dead and falling apart. Life only comes from other life, and once it is gone, the organism is dead forever. Each beat of the heart is from an unbroken line of a singular creation of God of humanity. Each time a heart ceases to beat (not pauses), it is stilled forever and the body immediately falls apart at the molecular level. Seeing the hand of God in life, even life we see and experience, is not sentimentalism, but a more true appreciation of the active will of God in creating and sustaining us.

It is not some abstract acceptance that God created everything so in a sense everything is a miracle, but being able to look at something and see it for what it is.
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#68
(06-17-2012, 09:47 PM)Spooky Wrote: There are many (if not most) saints whose bodies are not incorrupt, and there are non-Catholics whose bodies are perfectly preserved. such as the case of Medgar Evers. When his body was exhumed 30 some years after he died, it was in perfect shape. I saw a photo of it in a forensic book. It shocked me that a non-Catholic would be incorrupt and sort of threw the others in doubt.
I don't know.

That is not incorrupt. It is possible for a body in the right atmospheric conditions and temperature to be well preserved.

There are some Buddhist bodies which are called incorrupt for being well preserved too.

A miracle is something which defies nature. A body which is in adverse conditions, yet, is not corrupt. Some look at them and say "it does not look incorrupt" yet they forget what the body went through.

Also, even if something seems to be a miracle, it may not be. There are many natural events which can be improbable, man can manipulate nature, and demons can manipulate nature. Something can be praeternatural without being holy.
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#69
(06-17-2012, 10:39 PM)Rosarium Wrote: Sentimentalism would be liking the Church because it reminds you of your fond memories of your loved grandmother who brought you to mass or something.

In this case, I think the word is being misused.

No, that is how I meant it.  Looking at every heartbeat as a miracle appeals to an emotional fondness of God in the same way listening to a baby giggles appeals to fondness of that baby.

And I'm not saying that is a bad thing, or there is anything wrong with looking at life from a sentimental perspective.  But it is indeed sentimental.
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#70
(06-17-2012, 11:07 PM)Melkite Wrote: No, that is how I meant it.  Looking at every heartbeat as a miracle appeals to an emotional fondness of God in the same way listening to a baby giggles appeals to fondness of that baby.

And I'm not saying that is a bad thing, or there is anything wrong with looking at life from a sentimental perspective.  But it is indeed sentimental.

It is not sentimental except the in vaguest sense that it involves a possible feeling. However, I do not think such feelings come from the flesh. They are given to the flesh because the intellect and soul are mindful of the grace of God.

Would you say that Jesus weeping in the Garden was being sentimental?


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