Which One of These is Not Like the Others?
#91
(06-25-2012, 09:17 PM)GloriaPatri Wrote: Regardless of whether modern-day protestants are to be counted as material or formal heretics they still have no access to the sacrament of penance and thus would be damned by their own sins, if not their own heresy. That alone eliminates the possibility of salvation for every protestant post-age of reason.

Even if they have perfect contrition at their death?
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#92
Again, Protestants have no faith, without which it is impossible to please God. They also have no access to confession and thus their mortal sins will damn them. And those who do not receive baptism and die with original sin on their souls will also be damned. Thus the chance of anyone outside of the Church being saved is zero if just for the reasons given. And let's look at the latin again: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus; Outside of the Church there is NO Salvation. Not some, but none. For those outside of Her who honestly seek God God wil incorporate into the Church, by miraculous means if neccessary. And Jon, I suggest you don't sing your self-praise and call us the "legions of satan" That will get you banned pretty damn quickly.

And Melkite I highly doubt a Protestant, without the virtue of Faith, can have perfect contrition. Aand just look at todays prots. They're either fundies who hate the Church or liberals who sin against God left and right. Either way they'll end up damned.
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#93
I'm certainly not suggesting we bet on the majority of Protestants being saved, but what do you mean they have no true faith?  I find it hard to believe that a Catholic who barely has faith at all will stumble into a confessional and make it to heaven, but a Protestant who doesn't trust Rome because of bad teaching all their life, yet lives a virtuous life loving God and his neighbor, and is perfectly contrite when he dies, would go to hell.  I just can't see how contrition can ever be worth less than attrition and confession.
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#94
Protestants are objectively heretics, thus they do not have the theological virtue of faith. Without this faith they can't please God. Perfect contrition would require one to be sorry forbthe sin of heresy. Thus a heretic would have to, at the end of his life, convert even if only internally. Perfect contrition would require one to be sorry for having believed heretical lies over the truth. And again look at todays prots. They're either fundies (who lack invincible ignorance) or liberal modernists whose own beliefs encourage them to sin against natural law, for which no man has excuse, as St. Paul says.
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#95
(06-26-2012, 10:15 AM)GloriaPatri Wrote: Protestants are objectively heretics, thus they do not have the theological virtue of faith. Without this faith they can't please God. Perfect contrition would require one to be sorry forbthe sin of heresy. Thus a heretic would have to, at the end of his life, convert even if only internally. Perfect contrition would require one to be sorry for having believed heretical lies over the truth. And again look at todays prots. They're either fundies (who lack invincible ignorance) or liberal modernists whose own beliefs encourage them to sin against natural law, for which no man has excuse, as St. Paul says.

Don't you ever pray to be forgiven for believing something wrong that you are unaware is wrong?  I do all the time, I imagine Protestants would even moreso, since in their minds they have no infallible authority to look to.  Except for the Bible, but the rational Prots would recognize that their are as many interpretations as there are Prots so they can't all be right.  I would think a few of them are capable of entertaining the abstraction that they might be wrong and offer a conditional repentance because of it.
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#96
(06-26-2012, 10:20 AM)Melkite Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 10:15 AM)GloriaPatri Wrote: Protestants are objectively heretics, thus they do not have the theological virtue of faith. Without this faith they can't please God. Perfect contrition would require one to be sorry forbthe sin of heresy. Thus a heretic would have to, at the end of his life, convert even if only internally. Perfect contrition would require one to be sorry for having believed heretical lies over the truth. And again look at todays prots. They're either fundies (who lack invincible ignorance) or liberal modernists whose own beliefs encourage them to sin against natural law, for which no man has excuse, as St. Paul says.

Don't you ever pray to be forgiven for believing something wrong that you are unaware is wrong?  I do all the time, I imagine Protestants would even moreso, since in their minds they have no infallible authority to look to.  Except for the Bible, but the rational Prots would recognize that their are as many interpretations as there are Prots so they can't all be right.  I would think a few of them are capable of entertaining the abstraction that they might be wrong and offer a conditional repentance because of it.

Then he wouldn't remain a Protestant for long.  God answers prayers.  If a Protestant is searching for the truth and praying that God lead him to it he WILL convert.
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#97
(06-26-2012, 01:56 PM)Walty Wrote: Then he wouldn't remain a Protestant for long.  God answers prayers.  If a Protestant is searching for the truth and praying that God lead him to it he WILL convert.

Not necessarily.  I have seen this many times.  Protestants who are confused, but genuinely search and absolutely beg God to show them the truth don't always find the Catholic faith.  Sometimes they do.  Sometimes they stay with their Protestant religion.  And sometimes they switch to a different Protestant religion.  In fact, a relative of mine, one of the most educated and intelligent men I knew, was literally weeks away from being ordained a priest, but then had some doubts.  He took some time off for further study and in the end actually converted to Judaism (and this was all pre-Vatican II).

The fact is, we can do our best but then just plain old make mistakes, because we're not perfect.  We don't analyze everything perfectly.  We are given to prejudices we are not even consciously aware of.  We are shaped by our experiences.  Even genuine searching and genuine prayer does not always lead one to Catholicism.
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#98
The title of this thread reminded me of Sesame Street.
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#99
(06-26-2012, 02:20 PM)cgraye Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 01:56 PM)Walty Wrote: Then he wouldn't remain a Protestant for long.  God answers prayers.  If a Protestant is searching for the truth and praying that God lead him to it he WILL convert.

Not necessarily.  I have seen this many times.  Protestants who are confused, but genuinely search and absolutely beg God to show them the truth don't always find the Catholic faith.  Sometimes they do.  Sometimes they stay with their Protestant religion.  And sometimes they switch to a different Protestant religion.  In fact, a relative of mine, one of the most educated and intelligent men I knew, was literally weeks away from being ordained a priest, but then had some doubts.  He took some time off for further study and in the end actually converted to Judaism (and this was all pre-Vatican II).

The fact is, we can do our best but then just plain old make mistakes, because we're not perfect.  We don't analyze everything perfectly.  We are given to prejudices we are not even consciously aware of.  We are shaped by our experiences.  Even genuine searching and genuine prayer does not always lead one to Catholicism.

So then God sometimes gives a snake to His son who asks for bread? 

This is directly refuted in the Scriptures.
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What on earth... I provide you all the sources possible, including Abp. Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay saying the exact same thing I'm saying, and you still deny it...

Not holier than thou, you must understand... but you don't even submit to Catholic doctrine, how can you understand the zeal? This is why you people misunderstand the power of the words of St. John Chrysostom, for he is saying nothing but what is in the Bible, though in a very powerful manner.

I am proud only of the Church, only of the Faith, only of the Saints, not of myself. For I have not done anything but listen to these men as I have sought Christ, and repeated what they said with fervor and zeal, on fire for the Gospel.

I've proven you people wrong, and you still argue... just like the Jews. What will it take?

I will just leave you with the words of a man I consider my teacher in many ways, and I hope and pray to him a lot for intercession on correcting myself and understanding, which has been answered much.

Quote:"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).

ALL Glory to Christ!
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