Which One of These is Not Like the Others?
(06-26-2012, 02:20 PM)cgraye Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 01:56 PM)Walty Wrote: Then he wouldn't remain a Protestant for long.  God answers prayers.  If a Protestant is searching for the truth and praying that God lead him to it he WILL convert.

Not necessarily.  I have seen this many times.  Protestants who are confused, but genuinely search and absolutely beg God to show them the truth don't always find the Catholic faith.  Sometimes they do.  Sometimes they stay with their Protestant religion.  And sometimes they switch to a different Protestant religion.  In fact, a relative of mine, one of the most educated and intelligent men I knew, was literally weeks away from being ordained a priest, but then had some doubts.  He took some time off for further study and in the end actually converted to Judaism (and this was all pre-Vatican II).

The fact is, we can do our best but then just plain old make mistakes, because we're not perfect.  We don't analyze everything perfectly.  We are given to prejudices we are not even consciously aware of.  We are shaped by our experiences.  Even genuine searching and genuine prayer does not always lead one to Catholicism.

I cannot agree to this.

If one does not find the truth then we must assume that God knew that person was not sincere.

Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

Between the convert who did not find the truth and God, there's no question for me as to who I'd believe.

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(06-26-2012, 03:11 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 02:20 PM)cgraye Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 01:56 PM)Walty Wrote: Then he wouldn't remain a Protestant for long.  God answers prayers.  If a Protestant is searching for the truth and praying that God lead him to it he WILL convert.

Not necessarily.  I have seen this many times.  Protestants who are confused, but genuinely search and absolutely beg God to show them the truth don't always find the Catholic faith.  Sometimes they do.  Sometimes they stay with their Protestant religion.  And sometimes they switch to a different Protestant religion.  In fact, a relative of mine, one of the most educated and intelligent men I knew, was literally weeks away from being ordained a priest, but then had some doubts.  He took some time off for further study and in the end actually converted to Judaism (and this was all pre-Vatican II).

The fact is, we can do our best but then just plain old make mistakes, because we're not perfect.  We don't analyze everything perfectly.  We are given to prejudices we are not even consciously aware of.  We are shaped by our experiences.  Even genuine searching and genuine prayer does not always lead one to Catholicism.

I cannot agree to this.

If one does not find the truth then we must assume that God knew that person was not sincere.

Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

Between the convert who did not find the truth and God, there's no question for me as to who I'd believe.

Then you disagree with the Church, and thus, Christ.

Either you have arrived at this through a schismatic attitude, or as a person claiming heresy as doctrine, will become schismatic eventually.

It doesn't really matter if it makes you uncomfortable, you can't make sense of it, or even appeals to the entirety of human reason. But then, St. Thomas Aquinas addressed at that in the Summa Theologica.

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(06-26-2012, 03:02 PM)Walty Wrote: So then God sometimes gives a snake to His son who asks for bread? 

This is directly refuted in the Scriptures.

No.  But sometimes we are not capable of telling bread from a snake.
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(06-26-2012, 01:14 AM)INPEFESS Wrote:
Quote:Jon B. Horton

Rabid student of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Pope Pius X, St. Francis, St. Anthony of Padua, All the Apostles; admirer and studious reader of St. John; fervent prayer to Our Lady; Soldier of the Church Militant; Calvary's Cavalry Scout: knowing the terrain, knowing my enemy and his historical plan, having read all the tacticians, having read my enemies' manifestos, prepared myself for battle, have bested you, the legions of satan, who work for his synagogue, and sing his praises as do the muslims call to him in the most beautiful singing of Arabic poetry you've ever heard in your life. Heathens. Heretics.

What on earth is this nonsense?

A CV/lineage of learning/spiritual looking up to. A similar concept might be more familiar in a phrasing like "It is I, who have bested you, the tribe of X. I am Mustapha Bin Ali Mohammed Al-Shakr. etc..." Or, al-Hajjaj in the 7th century to the people of Iraq: "Oh, people of Iraq, I had come to you with two swords, one is for mercy which I have left back in the desert, and this one is the sword of oppression, which I kept in my hand."

It's a very old method of declaration. Much lost on anyone not familiar with history and culture not their own I suppose.
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(06-26-2012, 03:08 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: I've proven you people wrong, and you still argue... just like the Jews. What will it take?

Oh, come off it. Just because there are sharp disagreements does not mean to equate your opposition with Jews who reject(ed) Christ. Enough already.
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(06-26-2012, 03:08 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: What on earth... I provide you all the sources possible, including Abp. Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay saying the exact same thing I'm saying, and you still deny it...

Not holier than thou, you must understand... but you don't even submit to Catholic doctrine, how can you understand the zeal? This is why you people misunderstand the power of the words of St. John Chrysostom, for he is saying nothing but what is in the Bible, though in a very powerful manner.

I am proud only of the Church, only of the Faith, only of the Saints, not of myself. For I have not done anything but listen to these men as I have sought Christ, and repeated what they said with fervor and zeal, on fire for the Gospel.

I've proven you people wrong, and you still argue... just like the Jews. What will it take?

I will just leave you with the words of a man I consider my teacher in many ways, and I hope and pray to him a lot for intercession on correcting myself and understanding, which has been answered much.

Quote:"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).

ALL Glory to Christ!

Catechumens are not Protestants.  You say a lot but make little sense.
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(06-26-2012, 03:25 PM)cgraye Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 03:02 PM)Walty Wrote: So then God sometimes gives a snake to His son who asks for bread? 

This is directly refuted in the Scriptures.

No.  But sometimes we are not capable of telling bread from a snake.

The Eucharist is the Bread of Life.  If someone is truly searching for truth and for Christ then they will find Him.  God does not forsake.  "Ask and you shall receive,  Knock and the door shall be opened."
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(06-26-2012, 04:23 PM)Walty Wrote: The Eucharist is the Bread of Life.  If someone is truly searching for truth and for Christ then they will find Him.  God does not forsake.  "Ask and you shall receive,  Knock and the door shall be opened."

What if the person asking is not elect?
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(06-26-2012, 04:23 PM)Walty Wrote: The Eucharist is the Bread of Life.  If someone is truly searching for truth and for Christ then they will find Him.  God does not forsake.  "Ask and you shall receive,  Knock and the door shall be opened."

Nevertheless, people seek but do not find.  They ask but do not receive.  They knock, but the door is not opened.  Or...perhaps it is, but not so visibly as we are expecting.  God has chosen to place some interesting constraints on himself which lead to a number of interesting problems.  If God is truly both merciful and just, let us trust that he will find equally interesting solutions to them.
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(06-26-2012, 04:42 PM)cgraye Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 04:23 PM)Walty Wrote: The Eucharist is the Bread of Life.  If someone is truly searching for truth and for Christ then they will find Him.  God does not forsake.  "Ask and you shall receive,  Knock and the door shall be opened."

Nevertheless, people seek but do not find.  They ask but do not receive.  They knock, but the door is not opened.  Or...perhaps it is, but not so visibly as we are expecting.  God has chosen to place some interesting constraints on himself which lead to a number of interesting problems.  If God is truly both merciful and just, let us trust that he will find equally interesting solutions to them.

I don't think that that is an orthodox or Scriptural stance to take.  You're basically rejecting Christ's promises to us.

You do not always receive whatever you ask for.  That much is certain.  But if you are asking for the truth and praying that God gives Himself to you (as opposed to a new car, a great job, etc.) He will do it.  He is not the sort of God that lets His children cry out for Him only to be denied or ignored.

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