Which One of These is Not Like the Others?
(06-26-2012, 04:41 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 04:23 PM)Walty Wrote: The Eucharist is the Bread of Life.  If someone is truly searching for truth and for Christ then they will find Him.  God does not forsake.  "Ask and you shall receive,  Knock and the door shall be opened."

What if the person asking is not elect?

This is an entirely different argument, but I would say that only the elect truly seek and want Him.  Those who are not of the elect could not possibly do such a thing.  Remember that election efficaciously brings about salvation.  If one's name is written in the Book of Life then one, by the decree of God, will certainly do what is necessary for salvation. 
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(06-26-2012, 04:57 PM)Walty Wrote: He is not the sort of God that lets His children cry out for Him only to be denied or ignored.

Of course he is.  How many Christians cry out to him for just a scrap of food to feed their starving infants, but receive nothing, and instead watch their poor children die of starvation?  A lot.  All they wanted was the means to fulfill a need that God himself placed in them.  Hardly an unreasonable request.  And yet they received nothing.  Why?  Because some evil things have to be allowed in order for people to actually be free to choose.  It's not like God didn't create a world with food in it.  But people are prevented from getting it because of the direct actions of other people (or because the world is now a hostile place because of Original Sin, if you want to blame it on that - but that is still the result of human choice).  And yet we say that suffering can do good things for us.  So God makes up for the evil we cause.

In the same way, not everyone has access to the Gospel.  They may genuinely seek the truth.  But they may never be in a position to even hear about Christian ideas.  Or they are so brainwashed from birth into some other cult that they have no reasonable chance of freeing themselves from it.  Or they may lack the intelligence to analyze things and come to the proper conclusion.  Or any number of other things.  Will God any more miraculously override these obstacles than he does miraculously make food appear?  Sometimes.  Just as sometimes he does in fact miraculously make food appear.  But these are special cases, worked for God's own purposes.  Does it not seem reasonable that God will make up for these obstacles in some other way, as he does with our suffering?

You may think it is fallacious to equate temporal needs with spiritual needs in this manner, but I think experience bears this out.  People DO seek the truth and do not wind up as Catholics.  From this you seem to want to draw the conclusion that they were never really serious about it, but rather than assume they are liars, I think it is more reasonable to think that they were imperfect, and God answered their prayers after all, just not in a way that is so obvious to us, so as to act within the restrictions he has placed on himself to create the kind of beings he wanted to create.  And instead of trying to convince each other that some class or other of people are unavoidably damned, we should just do what God asked us to do and spread the only religion he gave to us for salvation, and leave the judgment in his hands.  If he is merciful and just, it will be the right judgment.
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(06-26-2012, 03:46 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 03:08 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: I've proven you people wrong, and you still argue... just like the Jews. What will it take?

Oh, come off it. Just because there are sharp disagreements does not mean to equate your opposition with Jews who reject(ed) Christ. Enough already.

Theonly disagreement is with Catholic doctrine. This isn't a friggin' democracy, guy. You're smarter than that. Come on!

(06-26-2012, 04:22 PM)Walty Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 03:08 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: What on earth... I provide you all the sources possible, including Abp. Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay saying the exact same thing I'm saying, and you still deny it...

Not holier than thou, you must understand... but you don't even submit to Catholic doctrine, how can you understand the zeal? This is why you people misunderstand the power of the words of St. John Chrysostom, for he is saying nothing but what is in the Bible, though in a very powerful manner.

I am proud only of the Church, only of the Faith, only of the Saints, not of myself. For I have not done anything but listen to these men as I have sought Christ, and repeated what they said with fervor and zeal, on fire for the Gospel.

I've proven you people wrong, and you still argue... just like the Jews. What will it take?

I will just leave you with the words of a man I consider my teacher in many ways, and I hope and pray to him a lot for intercession on correcting myself and understanding, which has been answered much.

Quote:"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (ibid., 4:21[28]).

ALL Glory to Christ!

Catechumens are not Protestants.  You say a lot but make little sense.

Well, I'm not a Protestant. Duh? I've only said what the sources say. It's you who can't understand it. That's not my fault.

The sources are clear: You're wrong.

Now get with the program, because everyone here who was or is wrong is needed for this fight.

You may despise me, I don't really care. But I have not presented anything but Catholic doctrine. If you are a Catholic, you must agree to it whether you like it or not, or even understand it. It's not a political stance on something. It's Faith and Morals. It's Doctrine. It's immutable. It comes from God.

If you disagree with what I have provided to you, you may disagree with the man, but you can't disagree with God and this is only what I've provided.

No student is greater than his teacher, nor slave his master. I cannot glory in myself because I'm no one. I didn't come up with this stuff. I'm not perfect. I was taught by reading and understanding that which was given to me from priests and deacons and the entirety of the list I wrote below my name.

I'm a sinner just like everyone else. I struggle massively with understanding certain things. But I came to a point where I just must accept certain things though I don't understand or even "agree". This isn't one of them. I've known this TRUTH for years.

It's up to you if you want to keep swatting at a pillar of truth with a dull knife of heresy. The gates of hell shall not prevail, even when Catholics go open them thinking they're doing the Lord's work.
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(06-26-2012, 05:32 PM)cgraye Wrote: You may think it is fallacious to equate temporal needs with spiritual needs in this manner, but I think experience bears this out. 

Yes, I do.  God never promised temporal goods so your equating the two has no basis in the faith whatsoever.  Temporal goods have no correlation with faith and, if there were one, it would be the opposite of the correlation that you are trying to make, per the Beatitudes.  Do you not believe Christ? Are not those who thirst and hunger, and are allowed to continue on in such state while remaining prayerful glorious?  Does Christ not say, "Blessed are the meek... Blessed are the poor"?

If you're going to keep arguing this then you should at least admit that "Ask and you'll sometimes receive" would have been a better and more accurate phrase for Scripture to have used.  Admit that, contrary to the words of Christ, the Father sometimes rewards faith and the request for bread with a snake.

What a vindictive and cruel God that is.
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(06-26-2012, 06:17 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: The only disagreement is with Catholic doctrine. This isn't a friggin' democracy, guy. You're smarter than that. Come on!

Obviously it's not a democracy!  You've got all the answers we need!
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(06-26-2012, 06:17 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: No student is greater than his teacher, nor slave his master. I cannot glory in myself because I'm no one. I didn't come up with this stuff. I'm not perfect. I was taught by reading and understanding that which was given to me from priests and deacons and the entirety of the list I wrote below my name.

That isn't really true.  Does anyone believe that Thomas Aquinas is no greater than his teacher, or Augustine?  How about Fr. Feeney?
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(06-26-2012, 06:31 PM)Walty Wrote: Yes, I do.  God never promised temporal goods so your equating the two has no basis in the faith whatsoever.  Temporal goods have no correlation with faith and, if there were one, it would be the opposite of the correlation that you are trying to make, per the Beatitudes.  Do you not believe Christ? Are not those who thirst and hunger, and are allowed to continue on in such state while remaining prayerful glorious?  Does Christ not say, "Blessed are the meek... Blessed are the poor"?

If you're going to keep arguing this then you should at least admit that "Ask and you'll sometimes receive" would have been a better and more accurate phrase for Scripture to have used.  Admit that, contrary to the words of Christ, the Father sometimes rewards faith and the request for bread with a snake.

What a vindictive and cruel God that is.

Wait, that makes a cruel and vindictive God, but electing some to eternal damnation does not?
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(06-26-2012, 07:00 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 06:31 PM)Walty Wrote: Yes, I do.  God never promised temporal goods so your equating the two has no basis in the faith whatsoever.  Temporal goods have no correlation with faith and, if there were one, it would be the opposite of the correlation that you are trying to make, per the Beatitudes.  Do you not believe Christ? Are not those who thirst and hunger, and are allowed to continue on in such state while remaining prayerful glorious?  Does Christ not say, "Blessed are the meek... Blessed are the poor"?

If you're going to keep arguing this then you should at least admit that "Ask and you'll sometimes receive" would have been a better and more accurate phrase for Scripture to have used.  Admit that, contrary to the words of Christ, the Father sometimes rewards faith and the request for bread with a snake.

What a vindictive and cruel God that is.

Wait, that makes a cruel and vindictive God, but electing some to eternal damnation does not?

God does not elect anyone to eternal damnation.  That's Calvinism.  At any rate, I don't mind discussing this but it should perhaps be done in its own thread.
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(06-26-2012, 06:31 PM)Walty Wrote: Yes, I do.  God never promised temporal goods so your equating the two has no basis in the faith whatsoever.  Temporal goods have no correlation with faith and, if there were one, it would be the opposite of the correlation that you are trying to make, per the Beatitudes.  Do you not believe Christ? Are not those who thirst and hunger, and are allowed to continue on in such state while remaining prayerful glorious?  Does Christ not say, "Blessed are the meek... Blessed are the poor"?

But it demonstrates a pattern of how God works.  Create people with certain needs.  Allow other people to prevent those needs from being met.  Turn that evil into a good.  I do not accept your assumption that spiritual needs work opposite of this, because that is exactly how God chose to work in spiritual matters as well.  Did God give Adam and Eve's descendants what they needed to fix the spiritual situation they were put in by their ancestors?  No.  Did he, knowing the future, arrange for things to occur differently so this mess wouldn't be created in the first place?  No.  Instead, he let people act according to their own wills and then came and fixed it up later, when the time was right.

Quote:If you're going to keep arguing this then you should at least admit that "Ask and you'll sometimes receive" would have been a better and more accurate phrase for Scripture to have used.  Admit that, contrary to the words of Christ, the Father sometimes rewards faith and the request for bread with a snake.

I admit nothing of the sort.  Rather, I contend that God's answering of that prayer does not always come in the way you are describing.  And I base that on the simple observation that not everyone who seeks the truth with as much openness as they are able ends up Catholic.

Quote:What a vindictive and cruel God that is.

No.  A cruel God would be the one who punishes someone for all eternity because he honestly tried to find the truth and got it wrong.
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You keep equating how God responds to prayers for non-spiritual things to how He responds to prayers for spiritual things.  To put it simply, God doesn't care about temporal things.  He only answers prayers pertaining to temporal things in relation to how those things affect spiritual lives.

You can't use that to find a pattern and apply that over to things of a totally different kind.  God doesn't just give gratuitous food or money to those that ask for it, but He does give gratuitous truth and grace to those who ask for it.  That's the very definition of the Christian God.  There are just reasons to withhold temporal things.  What just reasons could there be to withhold love?  Your argument makes God into something that is totally contrary to Christianity.

You're still arguing against the Gospels.  Whether you want to skirt around the issue or not, you're arguing for "Ask and you shall receive sometimes".  "A father would give a snake to a son asking for bread sometimes".  That's not what the Gospels say.  That's not what Christ said.
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