Which One of These is Not Like the Others?
(06-26-2012, 08:43 PM)Walty Wrote: You keep equating how God responds to prayers for non-spiritual things to how He responds to prayers for spiritual things.  To put it simply, God doesn't care about temporal things.  He only answers prayers pertaining to temporal things in relation to how those things affect spiritual lives.

I just gave you an example of how it was applied in a spiritual situation as well.  God's entire plan of salvation, in fact!  My comparison with temporal issues was not for nothing - it was an example (the problem of evil, essentially) to show what the logical result is when God mixes free will with his desire for the good of his creatures.  In order for them to coexist, some people will be deprived of something sometimes.  We unbalance the equation with our free will, but then God rebalances it with his.  Of course God cares about temporal things!  What kind of monster would create people with needs that when unmet cause great pain, and then not care about meeting them?  Didn't God command us to feed the hungry?  Clothe the naked?  Visit the sick?  Doesn't the Church spend a lot of time and money on this?  And, more fundamentally, didn't God create the universe and pronounce it good?

Quote:You're still arguing against the Gospels.  Whether you want to skirt around the issue or not, you're arguing for "Ask and you shall receive sometimes".  "A father would give a snake to a son asking for bread sometimes".  That's not what the Gospels say.  That's not what Christ said.

The Gospels do not say that everyone who asks will convert to Catholicism.  I didn't say that God does not answer the prayer, but that your understanding of how the prayer is answered is too narrow and without justification.  Everyone who seeks does NOT convert to Catholicism.  That is an observable fact.
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(06-26-2012, 08:43 PM)Walty Wrote: You keep equating how God responds to prayers for non-spiritual things to how He responds to prayers for spiritual things.  To put it simply, God doesn't care about temporal things.  He only answers prayers pertaining to temporal things in relation to how those things affect spiritual lives.

This sounds like a semi-gnostic idea.
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(06-26-2012, 09:16 PM)cgraye Wrote: The Gospels do not say that everyone who asks will convert to Catholicism.  I didn't say that God does not answer the prayer, but that your understanding of how the prayer is answered is too narrow and without justification.  Everyone who seeks does NOT convert to Catholicism.  That is an observable fact.

How can someone's interior life be observed as fact?  You're making some strange and liberal accusations here about God answering prayers for salvation but doing it apart from His Church.

Odd.
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(06-26-2012, 09:16 PM)cgraye Wrote: The Gospels do not say that everyone who asks will convert to Catholicism.  I didn't say that God does not answer the prayer, but that your understanding of how the prayer is answered is too narrow and without justification.  Everyone who seeks does NOT convert to Catholicism.  That is an observable fact.

Why is it so difficult to believe that those who do not find Our Lord in the tabernacle in the Catholic Church "down the street" are not really looking all that hard as we only think they were? God knows if they're sincere or not, we don't - we can be fooled and be naive, God cannot.

The observable fact is that they are insincere,  if for no other reason than there is already a multitude over the span of centuries who have found the truth there. The only observable fact is the end result, namely, they do not find the truth because they do not sincerely want to find it - and the only place the truth whole and entire resides is within Christ's Kingdom on earth.

Behold the birds of the air, for they neither sow, nor do they reap, nor gather into barns: and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not you of much more value than they?

-  Well, aren't we?
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(06-27-2012, 03:28 AM)Walty Wrote: How can someone's interior life be observed as fact?  You're making some strange and liberal accusations here about God answering prayers for salvation but doing it apart from His Church.

Odd.

Not apart from the Church.  Just not Feeneyism.
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(06-26-2012, 09:49 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(06-26-2012, 08:43 PM)Walty Wrote: You keep equating how God responds to prayers for non-spiritual things to how He responds to prayers for spiritual things.  To put it simply, God doesn't care about temporal things.  He only answers prayers pertaining to temporal things in relation to how those things affect spiritual lives.

This sounds like a semi-gnostic idea.

Gnosticism says that the only thing that is good is the spiritual and that the physical is evil.  I'm not saying that at all.  All I'm saying is that (and the Church has always said this) the spiritual is more important than the physical.  The infinite is what really matters.  Finite, temporal goods don't matter to God.  What matters are our souls.
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(06-27-2012, 10:26 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(06-27-2012, 03:28 AM)Walty Wrote: How can someone's interior life be observed as fact?  You're making some strange and liberal accusations here about God answering prayers for salvation but doing it apart from His Church.

Odd.

Not apart from the Church.  Just not Feeneyism.

I'm not a Feeneyite. 
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(06-27-2012, 08:08 PM)Walty Wrote: Gnosticism says that the only thing that is good is the spiritual and that the physical is evil.  I'm not saying that at all.  All I'm saying is that (and the Church has always said this) the spiritual is more important than the physical.  The infinite is what really matters.  Finite, temporal goods don't matter to God.  What matters are our souls.

That's what I meant by saying it sounds semi-gnostic.  You're not saying temporal goods are evil per se, but characterizing God as if he doesn't care about temporal goods makes him sound like he created the whole temporal order, and now he sits back and is uninterested with it, but only with spiritual matters.  Even if not intentional, there's a certain disdain for the physical order on God's part if that's true.
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(06-27-2012, 09:31 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(06-27-2012, 08:08 PM)Walty Wrote: Gnosticism says that the only thing that is good is the spiritual and that the physical is evil.  I'm not saying that at all.  All I'm saying is that (and the Church has always said this) the spiritual is more important than the physical.  The infinite is what really matters.  Finite, temporal goods don't matter to God.  What matters are our souls.

That's what I meant by saying it sounds semi-gnostic.  You're not saying temporal goods are evil per se, but characterizing God as if he doesn't care about temporal goods makes him sound like he created the whole temporal order, and now he sits back and is uninterested with it, but only with spiritual matters.  Even if not intentional, there's a certain disdain for the physical order on God's part if that's true.

Not disdain, but more disinterest in temporal things in and of themselves.  And I think we should make a distinction between physical and temporal.  I'm not equating the two.

God loves his created order but He cares monumentally more about our souls than anything else on earth.  Everything else is peanuts, transient, passing.  The temporal exists only to aid in our humanity and journey toward the eternal.
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(06-27-2012, 08:09 PM)Walty Wrote:
(06-27-2012, 10:26 AM)cgraye Wrote:
(06-27-2012, 03:28 AM)Walty Wrote: How can someone's interior life be observed as fact?  You're making some strange and liberal accusations here about God answering prayers for salvation but doing it apart from His Church.

Odd.

Not apart from the Church.  Just not Feeneyism.

I'm not a Feeneyite

As an aside, for any of you who might not know this, you don't have to be a 'Feeneyite' to believe in EENS as it's written, nor do you have to be one to be saved.  But you do have to believe EENS.

Carry on.
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