Which One of These is Not Like the Others?
#11
(06-24-2012, 05:50 PM)Walty Wrote:
(06-24-2012, 01:51 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(06-24-2012, 11:54 AM)jonbhorton Wrote: There's also the issue of context- what were those other pope's totally addressing?

Yes, I'm not sure that short quotations are really the best way to get a sense of the development of Catholic doctrine over the ages.

Development doesn't cover a complete contradiction of faith.  One quote says that salvation, in at least some ways, can be found outside of the Roman Catholic Church, while the other quotations say that those who die outside of the Roman Catholic Church are destined for hell.

It's not a matter of context.  I agree that this is a legitimate concern when looking at short quotes, but it's too often used as an excuse in these matters.  It's clear what Pope Eugene meant.  And it's clear that he would call the CDF's stance at least quasi-heretical.

Dude, no.

He's addressing this mainly to schismatics, and cluing them in they're not any better than pagans, Jews, and heretics. Pope Pius IX put it a little clearer in Quanto conficiamur moerore:
Quote:‘But it is also a very well known Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside of the Catholic Church, and that those who are contumaciously opposed to the authority and the definitions of that same Church,[b] and who are obstinately separated from the unity of that Church and from Peter’s successor[b], the Roman Pontiff, to whom the guardianship over the vineyard has been entrusted by the Lord, cannot obtain salvation’. [11]

In other words, with a pertinacious refusal to adhere to that which they are exposed to including the definition of the Church (which means understanding of doctrine), they're doomed to Hell but by God's Mercy. But they have to actually understand it. That could be as easy as the little voice in their head saying, "this is real, go to it", and ignoring. But then we'd just be getting into what the Bible says on Natural Law in Romans 2.  :LOL:

So, in essence, the exact thing I have written, Pope Benedict said, and all the other Saints and Popes said, and what the Bible says.

There's no issue here but refusal to learn how to read these documents properly, which means in line with Tradition and Sacred Scripture, or an inability for it to click. Kinda like the same people the insinuation of this thread is seeking to damn.

As Abp. Fulton J. Sheen said: "There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church."

And yes, many of them will be in heaven while many more, including many Catholics, will be in Hell. And many aspects of those systems and "church" communities were indeed instruments of salvation for those who will be in Heaven, though all salvation is through Christ.

This strict, Feeneyite sort of interpretation is no different than what got the Jews in trouble in Israel and led to their hardness of heart.

Read your Bibles.
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#12
(06-24-2012, 06:04 PM)Walty Wrote:
(06-24-2012, 05:56 PM)GloriaPatri Wrote: Couldn't God use a heretical church to introduce people to Catholic dogmas prior to then leading them to the Church? In the same way that the Law needed to come before the Gospel to prepare the way for it, could not heretical churches be used in the same way? I'm sure there are some people in the world who initially discovered Christianity through the protestant churches and then later found the Church when they were more spiritually mature. That's how I always understood that passage from VatII anyway.

Yes, but that's not what is being said by the CDF.  The Church has always acknowledged that people can learn and grow to conversion to the Church from other various sects of Christianity.  It has always taught that there are certain truths to be found in other religions.

But the convert is still saved by the Church.  Christ calls them in spite of their being a Lutheran, not through Lutheranism itself.  There may be truths in Lutheranism that help lead one to Christ's Church but that doesn't mean that Lutheranism is itself a vehicle for salvation.  If that's the case, then what's so great about Catholicism?  It's just a better version of Christianity than the other versions available?  That's certainly not what the Church and the Scriptures have taught for 2,000 years.

Yes, those infidels or those in other sects who discover that their faith is incomplete or false, and sincerely  strive to seek for the truth -  and accept the graces God sends them in order drive them into the Church, will find themselves led to the truth they seek only in the Catholic Church, meanwhile, all others who are insincere or reject the graces God offers them while they are outside the Catholic Church will perish when they die.

Clearly, the last quote in the OP reduces the dogma to a meaningless formula.
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#13
ALL SALVATION IS THROUGH CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's no clarity to the last quote because it's chopped off. If you haven't, read the entire quote which I posted. The full quote, however, is quite clear to be in line with what is being said by the Popes aside from Pope Benedict XVI. In fact, he has used this term elsewhere in regard to: priests- http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/p...edict_xvi/  ; and, marriage- http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/m...edict_xvi/

Step back from the idea that everything is a nail and the Church is the hammer. The Church isn't the hammer, but the Carpenter's assistant who people must call when they realize they have totally bungled it up and have smashed all 10 thumbs. It's not a meaningless formula anymore than a cake recipe. They can have all the right ingredients, instruments to cake eating, but until they agree to the recipe's full instructions and the fact that Betty Crocker herself wrote the thing, the only way they're getting cake is if it's by Jesus. Period. Full Stop. End of the discussion. There is no Salvation outside the Church, this much is true. But to reduce that, in totality and across the board without exception, to be obviously Catholic or fry is against 2k years of doctrine.

Let us not be like the perfidious Jews, who, 2k years ago had slammed the door in the face of the One they'd been waiting for. The first step to that was becoming ingrained with the idea that there is no salvation outside the Temple of Solomon or Herod. The entire point of the Jews was to clue them into the idea that their whole shebang was a springboard to saving the world. They too started splitting short hairs on a bull. Didn't work out well.

(06-24-2012, 07:03 PM)Stubborn Wrote:
(06-24-2012, 06:04 PM)Walty Wrote:
(06-24-2012, 05:56 PM)GloriaPatri Wrote: Couldn't God use a heretical church to introduce people to Catholic dogmas prior to then leading them to the Church? In the same way that the Law needed to come before the Gospel to prepare the way for it, could not heretical churches be used in the same way? I'm sure there are some people in the world who initially discovered Christianity through the protestant churches and then later found the Church when they were more spiritually mature. That's how I always understood that passage from VatII anyway.

Yes, but that's not what is being said by the CDF.  The Church has always acknowledged that people can learn and grow to conversion to the Church from other various sects of Christianity.  It has always taught that there are certain truths to be found in other religions.

But the convert is still saved by the Church.  Christ calls them in spite of their being a Lutheran, not through Lutheranism itself.  There may be truths in Lutheranism that help lead one to Christ's Church but that doesn't mean that Lutheranism is itself a vehicle for salvation.  If that's the case, then what's so great about Catholicism?  It's just a better version of Christianity than the other versions available?  That's certainly not what the Church and the Scriptures have taught for 2,000 years.

Yes, those infidels or those in other sects who discover that their faith is incomplete or false, and sincerely  strive to seek for the truth -  and accept the graces God sends them in order drive them into the Church, will find themselves led to the truth they seek only in the Catholic Church, meanwhile, all others who are insincere or reject the graces God offers them while they are outside the Catholic Church will perish when they die.

Clearly, the last quote in the OP reduces the dogma to a meaningless formula.
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#14
(06-24-2012, 08:49 AM)Walty Wrote: It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church....It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation...

There is nothing wrong with that quote; it's extremely general. 

The Orthodox, and historically the majority of Protestants (Lutherans, Anglicans, and others) baptize infants, and because baptism is how a person enters the Catholic Church, valid infant baptisms by non-Catholics make people Catholic, at least until the age of reason.  Therefore, the Catholic Church is present in those communions, even though they would not acknowledge that fact.

We know from history that the number of children who have died before the age of reason since the Orthodox split, and again since the Reformation, numbers in the millions.  During the early 20th century alone, millions of babies and young children died in the influenza outbreak of 1918.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

All those validly baptized babies were Catholic, even those baptized by non-Catholics, so the Spirit of Christ did use those non-Catholic organizations as instruments of salvation.

Because infant mortality before the 20th century was so great, I would venture a guess that the number of children in Heaven who were baptized by non-Catholics is in the hundreds of millions.


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#15
(06-24-2012, 07:30 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: ALL SALVATION IS THROUGH CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's no clarity to the last quote because it's chopped off. If you haven't, read the entire quote which I posted. The full quote, however, is quite clear to be in line with what is being said by the Popes aside from Pope Benedict XVI. In fact, he has used this term elsewhere in regard to: priests- http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/p...edict_xvi/  ; and, marriage- http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/m...edict_xvi/

Quoting your other post:
Pope Pius IX put it a little clearer in Quanto conficiamur moerore:
Quote:‘But it is also a very well known Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside of the Catholic Church, and that those who are contumaciously opposed to the authority and the definitions of that same Church,[b] and who are obstinately separated from the unity of that Church and from Peter’s successor[b], the Roman Pontiff, to whom the guardianship over the vineyard has been entrusted by the Lord, cannot obtain salvation’. [11]

Why do you think those who are obstinately separated, are obstinately separated? Are we to believe that: A) God does not offer the graces necessary to lead them into the Catholic Church?
Or are we to believe B) that they reject the graces God offers to lead them into the Catholic Church?

It's either A or B.
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#16
No, actually, it's not just A or B. As with all halves being whole to themselves, there is always the splitting factors of circumstances, ability, and understanding.

How on earth can someone be lead to something that they don't have proper access to, or who misunderstand in confusion the spurring factor to the Church and apply it more ardently to their own system? How on earth can someone refuse something, having no idea the definition of the Church, the true authority, or otherwise, unless properly taught? Does a priest saying some words and sorta, kinda, not really answering their questions properly, thus rendering them hearing a man with the authority of the Church preaching absolute BS? Because that happens a lot. It also happens when laity say stupid crap like the Feeney version, and they just know it's wrong.

If anything, there will be more Protestants in heaven than Catholics who hold this opinion, because this understanding as promulgated is as satanic a lie as Protestantism; and Protestants, able to read very clearly the passages in Roman 2, which even they agree on with the Church, would know such a statement is wrong.

C ya later.
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#17
Like I said, clearly, the last quote in the OP reduces the dogma to a meaningless formula.
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#18
(06-24-2012, 09:44 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Like I said, clearly, the last quote in the OP reduces the dogma to a meaningless formula.

The quote as provided specifically in the OP, or the real quote, which is referenced in the OP, though incorrectly quoted?

By your other post, I'd guess the latter. But since it makes a big dang difference, and I'm really trying to not read into something someone says when they mean the opposite, I'd like clarification before I answer that.
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#19
(06-24-2012, 09:44 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Like I said, clearly, the last quote in the OP reduces the dogma to a meaningless formula.

This.

If salvation can be had through other Christian sects then Catholicism is different in degree and not kind.  It is a matter of which religion has the "fullness" of truth.  Some are more wanting than others, and the RCC just so happens to have it best.

When we begin to talk of the Catholic Church existing within heretical groups we begin to make mush out of the visibility and unity of the visible Church.  Christ's Church is no longer one and the same as the Catholic Church, as stated in a number of places in the OP, but an amorphous and invisible cloud that floats amongst various churches and sects.

It seems to me that what is essential to faith is essential for salvation.  If it is possible for the Orthodox to be saved as Orthodox, or for the Lutherans to be saved as Lutherans, then the doctrinal differences, the primacy of the papacy, transubstantiation, the filioque, etc. are all non-essential doctrinal differences; they are merely different approaches to theology, but are not essential to Christianity.
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#20
I did not convert directly from Judaism to Catholicism.  I spend some years as a Fundamentalist Protestant.  It was a position closer to the truth than I had been and was a step that helped me to become Catholic.  Being Protestant was a means of truth and grace for me.
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