Torture in the Inquisition
(07-13-2012, 03:07 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
(07-13-2012, 03:02 AM)Resurrexi Wrote: Perhaps you should also think about a point I made earlier, namely, that if the state may lawfully take life for the sake of the common good, why (according to you) may it not lawfully use lower degrees of physical violence--here, specifically torture--to achieve the same end?

Because the state cannot force anyone to believe against one's conscience. Think about that for once.

The state certainly can and does in many cases force its people to change their beliefs. This is sometimes done in invasive ways and other times in evasive ways, but it is done nonetheless. Take a look at the last sixty years, in which the United States government--through a combination of policies--has stigmatized racism and made it almost unthinkable for anyone in the public eye to retain his dignity while maintaining racism. At lest in some minute form, this was, if not forcing, at least encouraging its citizens to believe against their consciences.

Similarly, most states have laws--which I assume you consider legitimate--against slander and inciting immediate violence through speech. This can force citizens to act against their consciences if their consciences command them to propagate their version of the truth or start a revolution. I'm not sure how heresy laws are much different. Citizens who expresses certain kinds of ideas will be punished because those ideas are (viewed as) harmful to the common good. This is within the legitimate sphere of state power.

(07-13-2012, 03:07 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
Quote:Also, how was divinely sanctioned violence in the Old Testament better than ecclesiastically sanctioned violence against heretics?
Here you must go back to basics and understand the difference between law and gospel. In the Old Testament there was death penalty for a lot of things, including kids that disrespected parents. Do you wish to enforce that? Or do you wish to get serious about your faith and understand God's purpose for these dispensations?

I don't necessarily want to enforce it, but the same God who gave the Sermon on the Mount gave the Law on Sinai. I'm not about to admit that anything in divine positive law was intrinsically immoral. If it's conducive to the common good (which it may have been in some historical and may well be in some future society), then I wouldn't oppose it.

(07-13-2012, 03:07 AM)Vetus Ordo Wrote:
Quote:And, finally, if we are assuming an entirely different society, why should we assume that our current personal condition--including the religious convictions of our family and friends--would remain the same?

This is just a cop-out. You don't really want to face reality: that in a Catholic state many of your friends and family would be heretics liable to be burned at the stake. I undertstand your fear and reluctance to look at such scenario but if you're going to be intellectually honest about it, you must.

It's not a copout. Most of us are discussing enforcement of religious orthodoxy in the context of an already Catholic culture.

Furthermore, in painting the hyperbolic image of my cousin or sister burning in agony before me, you haven't considered the alternatives. Maybe just economic coercion would work: punish heretics with a monetary penalty or tax (what's the difference?). Perhaps a bit of jail time would be fine. If, somehow, I ended up with a bunch of non-Catholic friends and relatives in the middle of a staunchly Catholic society, I'd probably be okay with their being taxed higher, or with one of them's having to serve a year or two.

Reply


Messages In This Thread
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-25-2012, 04:47 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Arun - 06-25-2012, 05:04 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-25-2012, 05:08 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 10:21 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Ray M Facere - 06-25-2012, 10:38 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 11:18 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Cato76 - 06-25-2012, 11:28 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Mithrandylan - 06-25-2012, 11:33 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 11:35 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 11:41 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by winoblue1 - 06-25-2012, 11:47 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 11:54 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 11:55 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 11:58 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-25-2012, 12:00 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 12:03 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 12:05 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 12:06 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Mithrandylan - 06-25-2012, 12:08 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 12:09 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Mithrandylan - 06-25-2012, 12:10 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-25-2012, 12:12 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 12:13 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Mithrandylan - 06-25-2012, 12:16 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 12:17 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 12:19 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 12:20 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Mithrandylan - 06-25-2012, 12:21 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 12:21 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 12:22 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-25-2012, 12:23 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Might_4_Right - 06-25-2012, 12:23 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 12:25 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 12:34 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 12:37 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 12:37 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 12:41 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 12:42 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 01:02 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 01:06 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 01:12 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 01:21 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 01:21 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 01:22 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 01:27 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 01:32 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 01:34 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by SCG - 06-25-2012, 01:48 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 01:50 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 06-25-2012, 02:04 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-25-2012, 02:23 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 02:39 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 02:41 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-25-2012, 03:03 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-25-2012, 03:25 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-25-2012, 03:27 PM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Sondaar - 06-26-2012, 04:17 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Historian - 06-26-2012, 09:48 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 01:29 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 01:32 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 01:50 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 01:50 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 01:54 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 01:56 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 01:57 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:01 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:06 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:08 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:14 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:17 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:20 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:21 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:21 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:22 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:26 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by TS Aquinas - 07-13-2012, 02:29 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:31 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:32 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:34 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:36 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:36 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:38 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:43 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:44 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:51 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 02:53 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 02:56 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 03:00 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 03:02 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by TS Aquinas - 07-13-2012, 03:06 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 03:07 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 03:08 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 03:14 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Resurrexi - 07-13-2012, 03:28 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Vetus Ordo - 07-13-2012, 05:03 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by Mithrandylan - 07-13-2012, 09:33 AM
Re: Torture in the Inquisition - by mikemac - 07-13-2012, 06:04 PM



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)