Sunday obligation on a Saturday at SSPX?
#1
Alot of my Novus Ordo friends go to Mass on Saturday, thinking it fulfills their Sunday obligation.  This isn't something I've really bothered looking up.

I have to be out of town and may not make it to Mass on Sunday, but might be able to make it to Mass on Saturday (I'm not sure, but I think it's either an FSSP priest or Diocesan priest who celebrates the TLM), but I don't know at what time the Mass on Saturday is.  I read that the Vigil Mass on Saturday can fulfill Sunday obligation, is that true or is that just a novelty? 

Again, I ask because I've never needed to know this before.

WWSD: What would the SSPX do? :P

(What would an orthodox Catholic do pre-1960's.)
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#2
(07-20-2012, 07:05 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: Alot of my Novus Ordo friends go to Mass on Saturday, thinking it fulfills their Sunday obligation.  This isn't something I've really bothered looking up.

I have to be out of town and may not make it to Mass on Sunday, but might be able to make it to Mass on Saturday (I'm not sure, but I think it's either an FSSP priest or Diocesan priest who celebrates the TLM), but I don't know at what time the Mass on Saturday is.  I read that the Vigil Mass on Saturday can fulfill Sunday obligation, is that true or is that just a novelty? 
Mass times were originally in the morning. The night before was considered to be the "next" day in some fashion. It is not a novelty although some aspects of it are a little different, such as masses being celebrated in the evening more routinely.

Quote:(What would an orthodox Catholic do pre-1960's.)

The earliest traditions had Sunday starting on Saturday evening. That means they refrained from labour, etc starting on what we call Saturday evening (this followed the Jewish observation of the Sabbath in terms of calculating time)

In the Middle Ages, they started considering it midnight to midnight most of the time.

And in even recent times, there was an obligation to be present at Vespers on Sunday. I bet most people do not know this.

The Church has made a rule, and we should follow it. It is good to go to Mass, and if one can go on Saturday, that is good. If there is a possibility that one cannot reach Mass on Sunday, then as long as one was acting correctly, impossibility dispenses the obligation.
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#3
"Vigil Mass on Saturday can fulfill Sunday obligation, is that true?"

Yes, it is, according to Pope Benedict XVI and his predecessors since Paul VI.
 

But if you went to an EF Mass on Saturday, it wouldn't be a Vigil Mass, would it?  

All Masses said on Saturday are not Vigil Masses; OF parishes have Saturday Masses as well as Vigil Masses.


Pre-1960s, an orthodox Catholic went to confession on Saturday afternoon/ evening, to Mass on Sunday and Holy Days (of which there were a lot more), never ate meat on Friday, and fasted from midnight Saturday until after Mass Sunday.



An orthodox Catholic would not have attended any church that wasn't obedient to the bishop of the diocese, would think that such a thing would never happen, though I think the "American Catholic Church" existed then.  

Edit: I checked that and the "American Catholic Church"  didn't exist until 1999 but before that there were the "Old Catholic" churches, quite a few of them, started at different times and for different reasons.  I've run into members of these groups online.

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#4
(07-20-2012, 08:07 PM)Revixit Wrote: Edit: I checked that and the "American Catholic Church"  didn't exist until 1999 but before that there were the "Old Catholic" churches, quite a few of them, started at different times and for different reasons.  I've run into members of these groups online.

There is the Polish National Catholic Church too. I do not know how orthodox they are in practice now.
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#5
(07-20-2012, 07:05 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: Alot of my Novus Ordo friends go to Mass on Saturday, thinking it fulfills their Sunday obligation.  This isn't something I've really bothered looking up.

I have to be out of town and may not make it to Mass on Sunday, but might be able to make it to Mass on Saturday (I'm not sure, but I think it's either an FSSP priest or Diocesan priest who celebrates the TLM), but I don't know at what time the Mass on Saturday is.  I read that the Vigil Mass on Saturday can fulfill Sunday obligation, is that true or is that just a novelty? 

Again, I ask because I've never needed to know this before.

WWSD: What would the SSPX do? :P

(What would an orthodox Catholic do pre-1960's.)

Since you cannot attend Mass on Sunday, under the Pio-Benedictine Code of 1917, and pre-conciliar ways, you are dispensed from your Sunday obligation. The whole going to a Saturday "vigil" affair is a VII thing.
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#6
(07-20-2012, 10:10 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: The whole going to a Saturday "vigil" affair is a VII thing.
It is not.
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#7
(07-20-2012, 10:10 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(07-20-2012, 07:05 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: Alot of my Novus Ordo friends go to Mass on Saturday, thinking it fulfills their Sunday obligation.  This isn't something I've really bothered looking up.

I have to be out of town and may not make it to Mass on Sunday, but might be able to make it to Mass on Saturday (I'm not sure, but I think it's either an FSSP priest or Diocesan priest who celebrates the TLM), but I don't know at what time the Mass on Saturday is.  I read that the Vigil Mass on Saturday can fulfill Sunday obligation, is that true or is that just a novelty? 

Again, I ask because I've never needed to know this before.

WWSD: What would the SSPX do? :P

(What would an orthodox Catholic do pre-1960's.)

Since you cannot attend Mass on Sunday, under the Pio-Benedictine Code of 1917, and pre-conciliar ways, you are dispensed from your Sunday obligation. The whole going to a Saturday "vigil" affair is a VII thing.

The way I was raised pre VII (born in 1951) one did not anticipate having an automatic dispensation except in last minute circumstances (one woke up ill on Sunday morning, or the car wouldn't start).  Even in these last minute situations we were advised to mention the situation the next time we went to confession (mention, not necessarily confess).  If one anticipates that they may not be able to attend Mass on Sunday morning (or Sunday evening when this was first allowed by Pius XII in 1953) they FIRST contact a priest and ASK for a dispensation before hand.  One never presumed to "self dispense" themselves from the obligation, a priest was ALWAYS consulted.

Though a dispensation is a dispensation, if one couldn't make Sunday Mass (and was properly dispensed from that obligation) it was always considered  good practice to attend a weekday Mass as a "substitute" if one were able to do so.

It is true that what is commonly called the "Vigil Mass" on Saturday evening or the evening before a Holy Day, which is the Mass of the following day and must not be said earlier that 4:30 PM, as a fullfillment of the following day's obligation is a post VII custom.  I have read that these Masses should really be called Anticipated or Vesperal Masses, as a vigil is something different, but the word "vigil" is what has "stuck" in English.

So "trad wise" they are a recent "innovation".  That said, the allowance of Sunday evening Masses by Pius XII was equally "innovative" as for the many centuries previous the celebration of Mass never occured past noon.
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#8
Pius XII also made some exceptions for folks to fulfill the obligation on Saturday evening (certain groups of miners, if I remember correctly).  The SSPX, from what I've read, acknowledge the legitimacy of the current canon permitting Sunday Mass on Saturday evening/afternoon and that one can therefore fulfill their obligation as such, but they don't like it.

http://www.sspx.org/catholic_faqs/cathol...urdayvigil

"It is certainly true that the highest legislative authority in the Church, the pope, technically has the right to modify the First Precept of the Church, since it is of ecclesiastical law, and not of divine law. It is this ecclesiastical law that obliges under pain of mortal sin, as defined by Pope Innocent XI, and so consequently a person could not be accused of mortal sin for simply availing himself of the privilege of assisting at Mass on the afternoon before a Sunday or feast day."

Given the rest of what is found in the answer linked to above, however, I doubt you'd find an SSPX chapel even offering a Saturday vigil Mass at all.
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#9
(07-20-2012, 10:10 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote:
(07-20-2012, 07:05 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: Alot of my Novus Ordo friends go to Mass on Saturday, thinking it fulfills their Sunday obligation.  This isn't something I've really bothered looking up.

I have to be out of town and may not make it to Mass on Sunday, but might be able to make it to Mass on Saturday (I'm not sure, but I think it's either an FSSP priest or Diocesan priest who celebrates the TLM), but I don't know at what time the Mass on Saturday is.  I read that the Vigil Mass on Saturday can fulfill Sunday obligation, is that true or is that just a novelty? 

Again, I ask because I've never needed to know this before.

WWSD: What would the SSPX do? :P

(What would an orthodox Catholic do pre-1960's.)

Since you cannot attend Mass on Sunday, under the Pio-Benedictine Code of 1917, and pre-conciliar ways, you are dispensed from your Sunday obligation. The whole going to a Saturday "vigil" affair is a VII thing.

The 1917 code is no longer in force. If you can make it to the Mass on Saturday evening then you're obligated to go.
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#10
Aragon Wrote:The 1917 code is no longer in force. If you can make it to the Mass on Saturday evening then you're obligated to go.

No one is obligated by ecclesiastical law in the modern crisis.  There are plenty of justifications not to fulfill the Sunday obligation, particularly when your option is a Novus Ordo mass. 
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