question about how to deal with a situation morally
#11
(08-06-2012, 11:03 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: If the management really won't do anything, go for it.

He's got an infant child, for God's sake.  C'mon people.

Yes, your daughter complicates the matter.  If you can assure that you won't get yourself in trouble with the landlord, I'd at least consider using the stinky stuff.  Have you explicitly told her about her smoke making your daughter cough?
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#12
It is not your place to punish your neighbor for her behavior. It is the place of the authority (landlord) to see to the welfare of the tenants and that they follow the rules.

If you decide to take matters into your own hands then at the very least there is an imperfection there, and very likely a sinful violation of prudence, charity and justice.

Returning evil for evil just perpetuates the cycle, and it won't convince anyone to do the right thing. No matter the evil caused you, nor having a child, you aren't justified in retribution over this perceived evil. And chances are (pardon the pun), that this will backfire, and just cause her to react with some other evil.

Consider also that spraying some smelly substance in the hallway affects more than this lady. To "punish" ... no you are trying to "convince" ... this woman you would be punishing the whole building


If the smoke is so bad that you and your child are coughing, it is hard to imagine that closing her door will help. If your door is closed and you're still getting such heavy levels of smoke in the apartment that you're coughing from it, then her door won't stop the smell or the smoke, and it's time to look for another place to live. If the apartments are as drafty as would be necessary to transmit this much smoke, such smelly substances will make your apartment very unpleasant as well.

Truth be told, the way you describe it sounds like a real situation, with added emotions and some exaggeration. It is understandable that you think this is having ill effects on your child and are more irritated about it. Given that you're willing to spray a smelly substance in the hallway to teach her a lesson, but somehow it seems you would be protected from it. It is hard to see how you could be getting so much smoke in your apartment as you describe.

I think you need to step back from the situation and try to do what you can to keep your apartment better sealed, then accept and offer up the small penance of walking through a smoky/smelly hallway for the few seconds that you must. Chances are that this small exposure is not going to cause any more than a brief annoyance and an opportunity for grace.

You might also consider asking around to other neighbors, especially who don't smoke. Get their assessment of the situation (but don't turn it into a gripe-fest), and perhaps ask them to kindly beseech this lady to close her door, or contact the landlord. With several gentle and kind requests perhaps she will be more willing to close the door.

Perhaps you could also ask her if she would close the door if you could get her something to purify the apartment of smoke. It might cost you something, but perhaps she would be willing to accept this offer, and you would both be doing a good act and getting what you want, in addition to perhaps winning a friend instead of an enemy.
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#13
First off a :pray: that the situation gets resolved!

I share Crusader Philly’s surprise that the neighbor’s action is considered acceptable behavior, especially in a city that regulates what size soft drink one can purchase.  In WA I think allowing smoke to drift toward non smokers invokes more moral outrage than say … copulating in public.  Smokers are by and large the “new lepers”.

Before commenting on the “stink bomb” idea a few other suggestions (you may have already looked into some of these):

1. Scrutinize the lease to see if there is anything in it that might be of use to your cause;
2. As NYC seems (to an outsider) to regulate “everything” is there some office in city hall that you might take the case up with?
3. Contact a staff member of your city councilman’s office to see if they have any suggestions.  If nothing else this might inspire the city to deal with the issue in the future.
4. Are other neighbors bothered?  Can they be enlisted in a group appeal to the landlord? ~ “strength in numbers” and all that.  Of course the landlord would probable need some point of the lease or city regulation to do anything legally themselves, once they were persuaded to act.


I’m not familiar with the “liquid a**” product but I personally would have two reservations:

First, as another pointed out, it doesn’t seem like a “Christ like” response.  I am quick to add that I’m not speaking from any moral higher ground, I am prone to plenty of mental nefarious reprisals against those who irritate me (fortunately these stay “mental” but I still need to work on my attitude).

Secondly, even if “moral justification” were arrived at one would need to check the lease and city code to be sure this action wasn’t some kind of infraction she (and other neighbors) could use against you.

I would have thought that the fan at the door would help, but you’ve tried that.  Have you considered, when smoke drifts in, walking across the hall and pulling her door shut?
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#14
(08-06-2012, 12:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: It is not your place to punish your neighbor for her behavior. It is the place of the authority (landlord) to see to the welfare of the tenants and that they follow the rules.

If you decide to take matters into your own hands then at the very least there is an imperfection there, and very likely a sinful violation of prudence, charity and justice.

Returning evil for evil just perpetuates the cycle, and it won't convince anyone to do the right thing. No matter the evil caused you, nor having a child, you aren't justified in retribution over this perceived evil. And chances are (pardon the pun), that this will backfire, and just cause her to react with some other evil.

Consider also that spraying some smelly substance in the hallway affects more than this lady. To "punish" ... no you are trying to "convince" ... this woman you would be punishing the whole building


If the smoke is so bad that you and your child are coughing, it is hard to imagine that closing her door will help. If your door is closed and you're still getting such heavy levels of smoke in the apartment that you're coughing from it, then her door won't stop the smell or the smoke, and it's time to look for another place to live. If the apartments are as drafty as would be necessary to transmit this much smoke, such smelly substances will make your apartment very unpleasant as well.

Truth be told, the way you describe it sounds like a real situation, with added emotions and some exaggeration. It is understandable that you think this is having ill effects on your child and are more irritated about it. Given that you're willing to spray a smelly substance in the hallway to teach her a lesson, but somehow it seems you would be protected from it. It is hard to see how you could be getting so much smoke in your apartment as you describe.

I think you need to step back from the situation and try to do what you can to keep your apartment better sealed, then accept and offer up the small penance of walking through a smoky/smelly hallway for the few seconds that you must. Chances are that this small exposure is not going to cause any more than a brief annoyance and an opportunity for grace.

You might also consider asking around to other neighbors, especially who don't smoke. Get their assessment of the situation (but don't turn it into a gripe-fest), and perhaps ask them to kindly beseech this lady to close her door, or contact the landlord. With several gentle and kind requests perhaps she will be more willing to close the door.

Perhaps you could also ask her if she would close the door if you could get her something to purify the apartment of smoke. It might cost you something, but perhaps she would be willing to accept this offer, and you would both be doing a good act and getting what you want, in addition to perhaps winning a friend instead of an enemy.

I read this and hear "baaaa baaaaa".

In short, the lady is having a negative health effect on the child.

She is introducing her smoke INTO common areas via the open door.

If the landlord won't do anything, lawyer up. In the meantime, use your imagination and reduce culpability by having an alibi.

I'm sick of the Jesus was a wussy response. Our Lord beat the crap out of people with a whip. He comes back and lays waste like the Mongols were a joke. There is a time for peace and a time for war. This apathy on her part is inexcusable.

The bitch is messing with your child and wife's health, not to mention yours. Act accordingly.
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#15
My vote liquid ass or the barfly one (it's smells like vomit) just outside her door (make sure there are no cameras in the hallway) she doesn't give a rat's ass about your kid's health so she needs to have a little "taste of noxiousness" since she gave you a dose of her own. It's not harmful but it's supposed to be REALLY strong. Since the landlord won't help do that.  8)

Just my two cents.
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#16
(08-06-2012, 01:52 PM)jonbhorton Wrote:
(08-06-2012, 12:17 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: It is not your place to punish your neighbor for her behavior. It is the place of the authority (landlord) to see to the welfare of the tenants and that they follow the rules.

If you decide to take matters into your own hands then at the very least there is an imperfection there, and very likely a sinful violation of prudence, charity and justice.

Returning evil for evil just perpetuates the cycle, and it won't convince anyone to do the right thing. No matter the evil caused you, nor having a child, you aren't justified in retribution over this perceived evil. And chances are (pardon the pun), that this will backfire, and just cause her to react with some other evil.

Consider also that spraying some smelly substance in the hallway affects more than this lady. To "punish" ... no you are trying to "convince" ... this woman you would be punishing the whole building


If the smoke is so bad that you and your child are coughing, it is hard to imagine that closing her door will help. If your door is closed and you're still getting such heavy levels of smoke in the apartment that you're coughing from it, then her door won't stop the smell or the smoke, and it's time to look for another place to live. If the apartments are as drafty as would be necessary to transmit this much smoke, such smelly substances will make your apartment very unpleasant as well.

Truth be told, the way you describe it sounds like a real situation, with added emotions and some exaggeration. It is understandable that you think this is having ill effects on your child and are more irritated about it. Given that you're willing to spray a smelly substance in the hallway to teach her a lesson, but somehow it seems you would be protected from it. It is hard to see how you could be getting so much smoke in your apartment as you describe.

I think you need to step back from the situation and try to do what you can to keep your apartment better sealed, then accept and offer up the small penance of walking through a smoky/smelly hallway for the few seconds that you must. Chances are that this small exposure is not going to cause any more than a brief annoyance and an opportunity for grace.

You might also consider asking around to other neighbors, especially who don't smoke. Get their assessment of the situation (but don't turn it into a gripe-fest), and perhaps ask them to kindly beseech this lady to close her door, or contact the landlord. With several gentle and kind requests perhaps she will be more willing to close the door.

Perhaps you could also ask her if she would close the door if you could get her something to purify the apartment of smoke. It might cost you something, but perhaps she would be willing to accept this offer, and you would both be doing a good act and getting what you want, in addition to perhaps winning a friend instead of an enemy.

I read this and hear "baaaa baaaaa".

In short, the lady is having a negative health effect on the child.

She is introducing her smoke INTO common areas via the open door.

If the landlord won't do anything, lawyer up. In the meantime, use your imagination and reduce culpability by having an alibi.

I'm sick of the Jesus was a wussy response. Our Lord beat the crap out of people with a whip. He comes back and lays waste like the Mongols were a joke. There is a time for peace and a time for war. This apathy on her part is inexcusable.

The bitch is messing with your child and wife's health, not to mention yours. Act accordingly.

THIS! Do what you need to in order to defend your family. 
I also highly recommend sealing the door and/ or looking into moving.  It may be inconvenient, but you need to do what you have to in order to take care of your family.  THAT is your highest priority. 
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#17
Forget about sealing your door.  When she's inside her apartment and her door is shut, go out and seal her door!  :LOL:
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#18
correction "barfume"
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#19
(08-06-2012, 01:52 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: I read this and hear "baaaa baaaaa" ...
I'm sick of the Jesus was a wussy response. Our Lord beat the crap out of people with a whip. He comes back and lays waste like the Mongols were a joke. There is a time for peace and a time for war. This apathy on her part is inexcusable.

Mockery isn't the best way of addressing a debate or topic.

And Christ had two way of dealing with the errant. Those who were desecrating the temple by extortion he expelled with force. But he did not always make war upon the errant. Look at those who were selling the doves, he merely commanded them leave. He did not overturn their tables or use force. Look at the example of the women at the well.

Our Lord was a man of justice and mercy, strength and gentleness. He was more of each than any man today.

But what he was not was a man of retribution. Not is there a single account of Christ exacting vengeance upon those who wronged him. In fact his supreme sacrifice upon the Cross is a place where he was most justified in his vengeance, and yet, there is absolutely none.

Those who have been given authority are also charged with exacting some kind of vengeance when necessary, but we are not given that duty indiscriminately. It is not my place, unless I am the authority, to punish someone for their offenses.

To bear wrongs patiently (when we do not have standing or duty to exact vengeance) is one of the Works of Mercy.

In short, there is absolutely no moral justification for stink bombing the place to make revenge for the lady smoking and leaving her door open, no matter how stubborn she is.

On the other hand, assessing the situation from an entirely practical standpoint (no moral question), what good would stinking up the place do? Is it going to get the woman to close her door when she smokes? I think rather it is going to get the woman to close her door until the smell passes, annoy many others in the meantime, appear childish and ultimately solve nothing. In fact it can only make the situation worse and could easily result in police intervention, create a more tense situation and even get one evicted.

In short, even without considering the moral principles involved, stink bombing the place is only going to make the situation worse.

(08-06-2012, 01:52 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: In short, the lady is having a negative health effect on the child.

She is introducing her smoke INTO common areas via the open door.

No contest here that she is being negligent, and perhaps stubborn, but there's more to this story than meets the eye. Something does not make sense. All caps does not make it make sense, either.

If the apartment building lets enough smoke into the OP's apartment with his door closed, closing her door will do nothing. This suggest that the OP can do something to prevent, or at least reduce this problem. It is not his place to police the common areas and enforce the rules of the building. That is the landlord's job, not his. He doesn't get to be landlord if the landlord fails in his duty. He gets to take the complaint to a higher authority. In NYC there are other avenues of resort including the 311 service (which is supposed to send police to handle such complaints when they are not responding to emergencies).

I would contest the extent of the health effects, especially if the OP could do something to reduce the amount of smoke (which it seems only reasonable he could do).

(08-06-2012, 01:52 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: If the landlord won't do anything, lawyer up. In the meantime, use your imagination and reduce culpability by having an alibi.

The bitch is messing with your child and wife's health, not to mention yours. Act accordingly.

First there are plenty of other legal avenues to pursue like those described here (PDF).

As above, there are venues for making complaints, legally.

There is also the option of asking again, and trying to be as kind about it as possible, or trying to get others on the floor to ask as well.

That you would use such crude language, and recommend lying is something I don't think Our Lord would recommend, even if he was not a wimp. That there would be culpability means there's probably something wrong with that course of action. Any example of Our Lord making up an alibi or trying to reducing his culpability would be happily received to demonstrate the goodness of your recommendations.
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#20
Or, you could ask you local priest about what you should do ...

Though, I doubt he is going to recommend stink bombing the place ... rather he'd probably recommend confession if you did.
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