question about how to deal with a situation morally
#41
In MN I think most apartments have to be smoke free in the common areas of the building. Maybe check up on your cities smoking laws and then contact management again with that information. I don't think you should have to pay for air purifiers or filtration systems when you are the one's causing the pollutant.

Even if you do the smelly spray, it probably would smell much worse to you than it does to her, because smoker's don't have a very good sense of smell after they've been smoking a while. The first time I tried to quit smoking I realized how much the cat box smelled....something I had never noticed before, for example.
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#42
(08-08-2012, 01:05 PM)kayla_veronica Wrote: Even if you do the smelly spray, it probably would smell much worse to you than it does to her, because smoker's don't have a very good sense of smell after they've been smoking a while. The first time I tried to quit smoking I realized how much the cat box smelled....something I had never noticed before, for example.

That is a good point.
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#43
Update: I'm pretty sure I'm not going to use the "liquid ass."  I am really angry about this situation, that should be a really, really last resort.  I'm not going to tolerate it lightly either. I'm going to seal things better, keep calling management, ask others to complain, maybe get a lawyer's letter, and so on.

One thing that heartened me is that putting the fan on even when she isn't smoking yet helps a lot.  I think that if we wait till we realize she has started, it's too late.  Also it's a deterrent to her, even though that wasn't our intention. She is literally right across from us and so if there's a fan blowing air back into her area, what's the point of keeping the door open?

It's still awful, but it's gone from "I can't stand this" to "well that helped a bit, maybe I can do some more."

Besides, I am thinking about trying to pray for her.  That is ridiculously hard to even start doing, I am so angry at her.

The main thing I don't know how to solve: even the best seal has to be broken when we open our door.  Groceries must be bought, deliverymen must have the door opened to give us packages, trash must be taken out, laundry must be done, man must enter apartment after coming home from work, dogs must be walked.  When we open the door, smoke rushes in.

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#44
(08-08-2012, 02:52 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Update: I'm pretty sure I'm not going to use the "liquid ass."  I am really angry about this situation, that should be a really, really last resort.  I'm not going to tolerate it lightly either. I'm going to seal things better, keep calling management, ask others to complain, maybe get a lawyer's letter, and so on.

One thing that heartened me is that putting the fan on even when she isn't smoking yet helps a lot.  I think that if we wait till we realize she has started, it's too late.  Also it's a deterrent to her, even though that wasn't our intention. She is literally right across from us and so if there's a fan blowing air back into her area, what's the point of keeping the door open?

It's still awful, but it's gone from "I can't stand this" to "well that helped a bit, maybe I can do some more."

Besides, I am thinking about trying to pray for her.  That is ridiculously hard to even start doing, I am so angry at her.

The main thing I don't know how to solve: even the best seal has to be broken when we open our door.  Groceries must be bought, deliverymen must have the door opened to give us packages, trash must be taken out, laundry must be done, man must enter apartment after coming home from work, dogs must be walked.  When we open the door, smoke rushes in.

I know how hard it is to pray for someone like that but I think that really should be done. I'd also suggest getting a large box fan for the times when you do open the door, aim it at the door and have it going full blast to blow out any smoke that might come in. Asking others to complain is a great idea, press on with that, even circulate a petition not just on your hallway but throughout the building. Other people on other floors might have the same problem. The more people you have complaining the better.

C.
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#45
(08-07-2012, 03:54 PM)Allan Wrote: Is it only ex cops that can muster facial expressions designed to "intimidate and motivate"?  Just give "the look" while muttering "close. the. door." and let her imagination (think Dexter) do the rest....

Non violent. Legal. Effective.

I would say that is potentially illegal.

If it is "effective", it must intimidate. If it intimidates, it is in violation of laws concerning assault/harassment.
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#46
I cannot speak for your jurisdiction, but generally a threat requires...a threat.  A person cannot be held criminally liable for the imagination of another.  In other words "Gee officer, he just had this look, ya know?  It made me feel threatended" just is not going to sustain a criminal conviction in any democratic system.

The closest law to it would be something called "assault by act or gesture" where a person could be convicted of assault if he or she uses an act or gesture (e.g. shaking a fist in your face, pointing to a knife then at you, etc.) causing a person to have an honest belief that you will harm them.  But even this requires an objective test - what another normal person would reasonably believe in the circumstances, as opposed to what that particular person says they felt.

My example did not even come close to this - no gesture at all was involved.  Just a "look" and saying "close the door".

Legal.
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#47
(08-09-2012, 11:25 AM)Allan Wrote: I cannot speak for your jurisdiction, but generally a threat requires...a threat.  A person cannot be held criminally liable for the imagination of another.  In other words "Gee officer, he just had this look, ya know?  It made me feel threatended" just is not going to sustain a criminal conviction in any democratic system.

The closest law to it would be something called "assault by act or gesture" where a person could be convicted of assault if he or she uses an act or gesture (e.g. shaking a fist in your face, pointing to a knife then at you, etc.) causing a person to have an honest belief that you will harm them.  But even this requires an objective test - what another normal person would reasonably believe in the circumstances, as opposed to what that particular person says they felt.

My example did not even come close to this - no gesture at all was involved.  Just a "look" and saying "close the door".

Legal.

Exactly. If she wants to act like a child, treat her like a child. Anyone remember their mom or dad doing this? I do. I knew the next step was getting my bottom smacked.

Never threaten. Only make promises. Threatening is the chest-bumping of vocal interaction.
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#48
(08-09-2012, 11:25 AM)Allan Wrote: I cannot speak for your jurisdiction, but generally a threat requires...a threat.  A person cannot be held criminally liable for the imagination of another.  In other words "Gee officer, he just had this look, ya know?  It made me feel threatended" just is not going to sustain a criminal conviction in any democratic system.

The closest law to it would be something called "assault by act or gesture" where a person could be convicted of assault if he or she uses an act or gesture (e.g. shaking a fist in your face, pointing to a knife then at you, etc.) causing a person to have an honest belief that you will harm them.  But even this requires an objective test - what another normal person would reasonably believe in the circumstances, as opposed to what that particular person says they felt.

My example did not even come close to this - no gesture at all was involved.  Just a "look" and saying "close the door".

Legal.
Rosarium is right.
I think the harassment laws of NY are stricter than you think and I would avoid anything that is remotely threatening in nature. Certainly he shouldn't try anything without running it by an attorney first. Harassment laws in NY seem dependent on the perception of the victim: http://www.ehow.com/about_6363863_harass...state.html

C.
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#49
(08-06-2012, 10:07 AM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Situation: The tenant in the apartment across from us smokes very heavily (her right) but she insists on keeping her door propped open.  The smoke then fills the hallway and our apartment, and it's awful.  I'm coughing like crazy but the worst is that it is affecting our baby girl who is coughing (and also second-hand smoke increases the risk of sudden death in children under a year old).

We've asked her to close her door, she refuses.  We put a fan outside our door, and tried a few other things.

So the question is, can I morally do something safe and I think legal but very unpleasant to her? Like can I spray some noxious product like "liquid ass" in the hallway, just a little so that it will only affect those apartments that keep their door propped open? (I researched the product -- supposedly safe, only lasts a few hours, and is very very unpleasant).

Yes it's a puerile idea, but she's not breaking the law so the cops won't help me, building management doesn't care, and she doesn't care.  I can't afford to just get up and move.

My goal is just to "convince" her that the should keep her door closed and if her apt gets too smoky, she can open a window, or get an air purifying machine or something, anything but pass the smoke on into our place.

What is this person smoking? cigars – three at a time? Close your door. Maybe she just wants her door open as I hardly think the smoke bothers her... Why not move to a smoke free building if you are so bothered by smoke?

FYI: I detest cigarette smoke and am glad I quit decades ago.
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#50
(08-06-2012, 05:35 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Getting complaints together is a good idea. I am going to seek signatures and ask others to call as well.

This is not about revenge btw. My goal would be to use just enough smelly stuff hat it wouldn't bother people walking by much, and wouldn't be noticed if your door was closed, but would be quite annoying if your door was open. So if she closes her door, no one would be affected.

Also I agree I will do more to seal our door. The thing is that the hallway is like a bar (except now in NYC you can't smoke in bars, lol). Closing her door will make a huge difference.

I would like to just close her door (a lawyer suggested this to me) but she uses something to prop it open. I don't feel comfortable crossing her threshold to move the object.

I have called 311 about this several times and files complaints. They can't do anything. I've called the cops, they can't do anything. I've. Alled the landlord countless times (literally dozens) and have sent them certified letters.

I could sue but would likely lose. I could move but it would be a serious financial blow.

I could bear this if it were just me but because of the baby I feel compelled. I could borrow a few thousand, have a new debt, somehow get my wife to pack and move while I work full time and she cares for the baby.

Or I could try the stink. I really am not sure if it's right, but it's so tempting.

You've called 311, the cops & the landlords, sent certified letters to same................it sounds as if this has already  become a war & it will just escalate if you put smelly stuff in the hall. The only things I can suggest is to open your own door & set a large fan in your open doorway. Blow her smoke back at her, if she's across the hall from you. If she asks why you've done that, just say that you have an odor in your apt. (You DO..........her smoke.) If that doesn't help, take this to the housing authorities & face the fact that you might HAVE to move.

(BTW. I'm an EX-smoker & would never have done what she's doing.)
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