Contradictions of the modern popes
(08-17-2012, 12:57 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-17-2012, 12:37 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Father, may I remind you that this is supposed to be a Traditional Catholic forum . . .

I think part of the problem is that the definition of "traditional Catholic" has mutated over the years, so those traditional Catholics of the "traditional persuasion" find those of the Summorum Pontificum persuasion (conservative Catholics) to be quite hostile to the traditional persuasion. Tradition as a obligation and tradition as a (strong) preference will never see eye to eye.

I think that "traditional Catholic" has always been used in the differing senses that it is used now.  However the proportion of people who use the term the way that you and Stubborn do has grown smaller.  Thus we see the constant attempts to suggest that some people aren't "real trads" and have no right to express themselves here in the forum.  The "resist the Magisterium" type of trads want to be in the majority and drown out the other opinions.
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(08-17-2012, 02:28 PM)JayneK Wrote: I think that "traditional Catholic" has always been used in the differing senses that it is used now.  However the proportion of people who use the term the way that you and Stubborn do has grown smaller.  Thus we see the constant attempts to suggest that some people aren't "real trads" and have no right to express themselves here in the forum.  The "resist the Magisterium" type of trads want to be in the majority and drown out the other opinions.

I do not believe that the post-Vatican II magisterium is the magisterium of the Catholic Church; if I did, God forbid that I should disobey it. I have no reason to believe that it is (based on what it teaches) beyond what other Catholics tell me it is. But I do not use other's beliefs and opinions as my own standard of belief. I use the Church's standard for knowing truth, and indiscreet obedience and submission of the reasoning faculties to magisterial contradictions aren't her standards for knowing truths; in fact, she has warned against them.

We have different opinions on the matter because we approach the matter from different premises. I respect your conclusion (based upon your premise) and I ask you to respect mine (based upon mine). I have held the two syllogisms side by side for you in order to demonstrate why I believe your approach is wrong (both from a reason standpoint and from a moral standpoint), but I have no intention of trying to convince you further. I ask only that you deal with my actual position and not a strawman of my position ("resist the magisterium" type of trads).

In context, it seems that you are including all positions that are more conservative than yours in the above generalization. It is possible that such a statement could be made against the SSPX, but beyond that it is simply a generalization. Until you fairly deal with the opinions of those with whom you disagree, there isn't much else that I have to say. I don't know how many times I have to point out your misrepresentation of my (and others') position before you will deal fairly and straightforwardly with what they actually say not what is easiest to refute. I don't ask for you to change your mind; I ask only for you to deal fairly with your opposition.

You and I are still both Catholics and I love you as a sister in Christ. I don't believe you are a heretic; I simply believe that you have reached a false conclusion because of a false premise that isn't supported by the Church's teachings. Nevertheless, my argument isn't with you; it is with the Modernists that have caused this strain amongst us all.
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(08-17-2012, 02:28 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-17-2012, 12:57 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(08-17-2012, 12:37 PM)Stubborn Wrote: Father, may I remind you that this is supposed to be a Traditional Catholic forum . . .

I think part of the problem is that the definition of "traditional Catholic" has mutated over the years, so those traditional Catholics of the "traditional persuasion" find those of the Summorum Pontificum persuasion (conservative Catholics) to be quite hostile to the traditional persuasion. Tradition as a obligation and tradition as a (strong) preference will never see eye to eye.

I think that "traditional Catholic" has always been used in the differing senses that it is used now.  However the proportion of people who use the term the way that you and Stubborn do has grown smaller.  Thus we see the constant attempts to suggest that some people aren't "real trads" and have no right to express themselves here in the forum.  The "resist the Magisterium" type of trads want to be in the majority and drown out the other opinions.

I know you don't answer straight questions with straight answers, so just ask yourself - why on earth would any traditional Roman Catholic resist the Magisterium.
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Quote:But OK, I also understand that some members here have heard already enough from me.

On the contrary, I haven't heard nearly enough.  I keep asking about John XXII;  so far, no response.

Quote:Anybody who doesn't absolutely rejects V2 is already suspect or anathema. Against that kind of blindness, I cannot argue.

Again, I must say I don't approve of the accusation of blindness.  The people here are people who are passionate about their faith, and actually FEAR falling into heresy.  Some are probably afraid that a "Doctor of the Law" with tons of theological know-how will come along, numb their conscience, and steal away their faith.  That's been done before, you know.  Martin Luther himself was a theologian.

Fr, if a Catholic from 100 years ago were to hear the way Pope Benedict talks and the Assisi meetings he holds today, would he recognize that this was the visible head of the Catholic Church on earth?  I truly think not.  If that makes me a fool with no theological training to see "the way, the truth, and the life" that's apparently only available in German, then so be it.

I suppose there was nothing scholarly about the man who wrote "The Rhine Flows into the Tiber", either.
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(08-17-2012, 02:19 AM)kingofspades Wrote: The fanatism and stubborn 'hey wanna pick a fight' mentality in this topic is so dominant, that nobody even wants to think about the topic as such.  :crazy:

And mr TrentCath, look in the mirror: what do you think others here (including me) think about the SSPX when the society is linked with this kind of theoligical street fighting? Consider the possiblity that the impression could arise that we cannot have a normal conversation with SSPX people? Too much fanatism gives the SSPX a bad name. People might think "it look so holy when we attend Mass, but inderneath i's a community of insulting, yelling, hammering, fanatic people"! Not to say what less balanced people might think.

In the end it's all a waste of energy, your whole topic. You'd better used that time for praying.

May I ask you: what theoligical studies did you make? Do you have a PhD or so?

Is your job to come here and shit all over the SSPX?  Because, priest or not, that's all I've seen you post.  And I'd encourage you to go to an SSPX chapel and meet and talk with the chapelgoers, because of the like 4 or 5 chapels I've been to (not a lot, but more than most Catholics), I've found very welcoming, nice, and devout Catholics. 

Your slanderous bullshit is out of line, ESPECIALLY if you are, as you claim, a Catholic priest. 

And, you should take your own advice.
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(08-17-2012, 06:46 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote:
(08-17-2012, 02:19 AM)kingofspades Wrote: The fanatism and stubborn 'hey wanna pick a fight' mentality in this topic is so dominant, that nobody even wants to think about the topic as such.  :crazy:

And mr TrentCath, look in the mirror: what do you think others here (including me) think about the SSPX when the society is linked with this kind of theoligical street fighting? Consider the possiblity that the impression could arise that we cannot have a normal conversation with SSPX people? Too much fanatism gives the SSPX a bad name. People might think "it look so holy when we attend Mass, but inderneath i's a community of insulting, yelling, hammering, fanatic people"! Not to say what less balanced people might think.

In the end it's all a waste of energy, your whole topic. You'd better used that time for praying.

May I ask you: what theoligical studies did you make? Do you have a PhD or so?

Is your job to come here and shit all over the SSPX?  Because, priest or not, that's all I've seen you post.  And I'd encourage you to go to an SSPX chapel and meet and talk with the chapelgoers, because of the like 4 or 5 chapels I've been to (not a lot, but more than most Catholics), I've found very welcoming, nice, and devout Catholics. 

Your slanderous bullshit is out of line, ESPECIALLY if you are, as you claim, a Catholic priest. 

And, you should take your own advice.

It was not slanderous bullshit.  He was talking about the impression of the SSPX people might get from this thread and others like it, not claiming that this is what they are like.  And that is very much like the impression I got of the Society here, so he is exactly right.

I have been greatly appreciating Father's posts.
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(08-17-2012, 06:52 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-17-2012, 06:46 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote:
(08-17-2012, 02:19 AM)kingofspades Wrote: The fanatism and stubborn 'hey wanna pick a fight' mentality in this topic is so dominant, that nobody even wants to think about the topic as such.  :crazy:

And mr TrentCath, look in the mirror: what do you think others here (including me) think about the SSPX when the society is linked with this kind of theoligical street fighting? Consider the possiblity that the impression could arise that we cannot have a normal conversation with SSPX people? Too much fanatism gives the SSPX a bad name. People might think "it look so holy when we attend Mass, but inderneath i's a community of insulting, yelling, hammering, fanatic people"! Not to say what less balanced people might think.

In the end it's all a waste of energy, your whole topic. You'd better used that time for praying.

May I ask you: what theoligical studies did you make? Do you have a PhD or so?

Is your job to come here and shit all over the SSPX?  Because, priest or not, that's all I've seen you post.  And I'd encourage you to go to an SSPX chapel and meet and talk with the chapelgoers, because of the like 4 or 5 chapels I've been to (not a lot, but more than most Catholics), I've found very welcoming, nice, and devout Catholics. 

Your slanderous bullshit is out of line, ESPECIALLY if you are, as you claim, a Catholic priest. 

And, you should take your own advice.

It was not slanderous bullshit.  He was talking about the impression of the SSPX people might get from this thread and others like it, not claiming that this is what they are like.  And that is very much like the impression I got of the Society here, so he is exactly right.

I have been greatly appreciating Father's posts.

Then you should take a long hard look at yourself.
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(08-17-2012, 06:46 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote:
(08-17-2012, 02:19 AM)kingofspades Wrote: The fanatism and stubborn 'hey wanna pick a fight' mentality in this topic is so dominant, that nobody even wants to think about the topic as such.  :crazy:

And mr TrentCath, look in the mirror: what do you think others here (including me) think about the SSPX when the society is linked with this kind of theoligical street fighting? Consider the possiblity that the impression could arise that we cannot have a normal conversation with SSPX people? Too much fanatism gives the SSPX a bad name. People might think "it look so holy when we attend Mass, but inderneath i's a community of insulting, yelling, hammering, fanatic people"! Not to say what less balanced people might think.

In the end it's all a waste of energy, your whole topic. You'd better used that time for praying.

May I ask you: what theoligical studies did you make? Do you have a PhD or so?

Is your job to come here and shit all over the SSPX?  Because, priest or not, that's all I've seen you post.  And I'd encourage you to go to an SSPX chapel and meet and talk with the chapelgoers, because of the like 4 or 5 chapels I've been to (not a lot, but more than most Catholics), I've found very welcoming, nice, and devout Catholics. 

Your slanderous bullshit is out of line, ESPECIALLY if you are, as you claim, a Catholic priest. 

And, you should take your own advice.

It is a good thing you have demonstrated the proper, charitable way to treat other people.  Especially Catholic Priests.
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