Contradictions of the modern popes
(08-14-2012, 01:44 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: Or you could just respond with all the reasons that respected, conservative theologian is wrong. Your use of "sophisms!", "ad hominem!" etc get old. Cry wolf to someone else dude. You engage in it just as much as anyone else. If you want to play the proper rhetoric game, then engage in proper, civil rhetoric or shut your SSPX mouth up.


You're going to try and dictate rules to me on my own thread? Oh you are funny  :LOL:

As long as I avoid sin I will do as I wish and you are deluded if you think you can convince me to do otherwise.
Trent you should create a thread for each different point you have. So, one thread on the ends of marriage, Castii Conubi, the 1983 code, etc.

I think if you do this, distractions can be avoided. This thread won't go anywhere.
You're "sinning" against the standard you hold others to. Don't we all? Shoot, at least I include a response in my jabs at people like Mikemac for the most part.

I'm not dictating rules to you in your thread insofar as what you can do with this thread, but rather, physically, so to speak, in "your" thread, I'm saying you need to go tell us why that theologian is all wrong.

Have fun playing with yourself while you turn this into SSPX Copy/Paste game time.
Quote: 6. The world desperately needs the full communion of one Church, herself a sign and bearer of the Triune God’s work of uniting the human family. And despite the serious issues which still divide us, our present degree of unity in Christ is already a sign that Jesus Christ is present among us, that it is he who is the source of our reconciliation.

Our common prayer expresses and manifests the peace reigning in our hearts, that gift "from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation". Hence the importance of the new attitude of dialogue in which we are able to come together. The many ecumenical initiatives going on here in Australia and in other parts of the world, such as theological discussion, common prayer, collaboration in many fields – all speak of the Christian vision of reconciliation, which we must both proclaim to the world and show by the way we live. They speak of our desire to surrender ourselves to the Holy Spirit.

Quote: Unity is an essential mark of the Church. Far from being a merely human organization with a message, the Church is the Body and Bride of her Lord, born from his wounded side on the Cross. Her unity flows from her very nature and is essential to her mission. It is part of God’s plan of salvation. It is the will and prayer of Christ. We recognize too that for the Church to be a credible sign of redemption and communion with God, she must live in conformity with what she is and with what she proclaims. Indeed, all who look upon Jesus as “the author of salvation and the source of unity and peace” (Ibid., 9) will want to do everything possible to be effective signs and instruments of that unity and peace, “so that the world may believe” (Io. 17, 21). For this reason, the concern for Christian unity with which we have gathered in prayer this morning is no small or superficial matter.

3. We must acknowledge with sorrow that Christians are not united. At the same time we can be confident that the Lord of history has not abandoned us to our divisions. He wisely and patiently draws us by his grace to an ever greater remorse for them and an ever greater desire for unity (Cfr. Unitatis Redintegratio, 1).

Despite all the dissension and division over the centuries, belief in our one Lord and Saviour and incorporation into him by Baptism ensures a kind of communion, however imperfect. Baptism, which is a sacramental bond among all those who have been reborn, is at the same time a dynamic point of departure. Once baptized, we must strive for fullness of life in Christ, a fullness that is expressed in the complete profession of faith and in the sacramental unity and fellowship of the Church as Christ willed it to be (Cfr. ibid. 22). As I stated last year to a Delegation from the Lutheran World Federation: “Because we already share bonds of unity in Christ through Baptism, we can never be satisfied with anything less than full communion” (Ioannis Pauli PP. II Ad quosdam seiunctos Fratres coram admissos, 3, die 4 mar. 1988: Insegnamenti di Giovanni Paolo II, XI, 1 [1988] 552). 


And though it somewhat messes up the date idea, one couldn't really address Pope John Paul II's view of ecumenicism without quoting from 'Ut Unum Sint':

Quote: By God's grace, however, neither what belongs to the structure of the Church of Christ nor that communion which still exists with the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities has been destroyed.

Indeed, the elements of sanctification and truth present in the other Christian Communities, in a degree which varies from one to the other, constitute the objective basis of the communion, albeit imperfect, which exists between them and the Catholic Church.

To the extent that these elements are found in other Christian Communities, the one Church of Christ is effectively present in them. For this reason the Second Vatican Council speaks of a certain, though imperfect communion. The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium stresses that the Catholic Church "recognizes that in many ways she is linked" 14 with these Communities by a true union in the Holy Spirit.

12. The same Dogmatic Constitution listed at length "the elements of sanctification and truth" which in various ways are present and operative beyond the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: "For there are many who honour Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and of action, and who show a true religious zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by Baptism, through which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and receive other sacraments within their own Churches or Ecclesial Communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist, and cultivate devotion towards the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise, we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them also he gives his gifts and graces, and is thereby operative among them with his sanctifying power. Some indeed he has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd".15

The Council's Decree on Ecumenism, referring to the Orthodox Churches, went so far as to declare that "through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches, the Church of God is built up and grows in stature".16 Truth demands that all this be recognized.

13. The same Document carefully draws out the doctrinal implications of this situation. Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church".17

With reference to the many positive elements present in the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities, the Decree adds: "All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to him, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The separated brethren also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion. Undoubtedly, in many ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community, these actions can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation".18

These are extremely important texts for ecumenism. It is not that beyond the boundaries of the Catholic community there is an ecclesial vacuum. Many elements of great value (eximia), which in the Catholic Church are part of the fullness of the means of salvation and of the gifts of grace which make up the Church, are also found in the other Christian Communities.

14. All these elements bear within themselves a tendency towards unity, having their fullness in that unity. It is not a matter of adding together all the riches scattered throughout the various Christian Communities in order to arrive at a Church which God has in mind for the future. In accordance with the great Tradition, attested to by the Fathers of the East and of the West, the Catholic Church believes that in the Pentecost Event God has already manifested the Church in her eschatological reality, which he had prepared "from the time of Abel, the just one".19 This reality is something already given. Consequently we are even now in the last times. The elements of this already-given Church exist, found in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other Communities,20 where certain features of the Christian mystery have at times been more effectively emphasized. Ecumenism is directed precisely to making the partial communion existing between Christians grow towards full communion in truth and charity.
Pope John Paul II, Ut Unum Sint

There are four major points to address here:

i) the obsession with ecumenicism
ii) the argument that all christians are in some way united through baptism, that they have some form of communion
iii) the argument that whole schismatic churchs and heretical sects are in some way in some form of communion with the Catholic Church
iv) as a follow on from the above that heretics and schismatics have 'access to the community of salvation'

For the contradictions with the first see:

Quote: “3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians.
4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be "one."[1] And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another"?[2] All Christians, they add, should be as "one": for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.
5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil; for We are confident that by the writings and words of each one of you the people will more easily get to know and understand those principles and arguments which We are about to set forth, and from which Catholics will learn how they are to think and act when there is question of those undertakings which have for their end the union in one body, whatsoever be the manner, of all who call themselves Christians.
But, all the same, although many non-Catholics may be found who loudly preach fraternal communion in Christ Jesus, yet you will find none at all to whom it ever occurs to submit to and obey the Vicar of Jesus Christ either in His capacity as a teacher or as a governor. Meanwhile they affirm that they would willingly treat with the Church of Rome, but on equal terms, that is as equals with an equal: but even if they could so act. it does not seem open to doubt that any pact into which they might enter would not compel them to turn from those opinions which are still the reason why they err and stray from the one fold of Christ.
8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ. Shall We suffer, what would indeed be iniquitous, the truth, and a truth divinely revealed, to be made a subject for compromise?
9. These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you."[18] For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith
10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: "The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and the hope of life and salvation modestly."[20] The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that "this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills."[21] For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one,[22] compacted and fitly joined together,[23] it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.[24]
11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, "the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful"?[25] Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind."[26]
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos

Quote: In addition, since very great offence is given to God from the prolonged and manifold heresy of the Bohemians, and scandal is caused to the christian people, the charge of bringing back these people to the light and harmony of the true faith has been wholly entrusted by us for the immediate future to our dear son, Thomas of Esztergom, cardinal-priest of the title of St Martin in the Hills, as legate of ourself and the apostolic see to Hungary and Bohemia. We exhort these people in the Lord not to neglect to dispatch some of their spokesmen, with an adequate mandate, either to us and this sacred Lateran council or to the same Thomas, cardinal-legate, who will be nearer to them. The purpose will be to exchange views with regard to an appropriate remedy by which they may recognise the errors to which they have long been in thrall and may be led back, with God's guidance, to the true practice of religion and into the bosom of holy mother church. With the approval of the sacred council, by the tenor of the present letter, we grant and bestow on them, by the faith of a pontiff, a public guarantee and a free safe-conduct as to their coming, going, remaining for as long as the negotiation of the aforesaid matters shall last, and afterwards for departing and returning to their own territories; and we shall consent to their wishes so far as we can under God
  Fifth Lateran Council, Session 8

Quote: Therefore the whole and entire Catholic doctrine is to be presented and explained: by no means is it permitted to pass over in silence or to veil in ambiguous terms the Catholic truth regarding the nature and way of justification, the constitution of the Church, the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, and the only true union by the return of the dissidents to the one true Church of Christ. It should be made clear to them that, in returning to the Church, they will lose nothing of that good which by the grace of God has hitherto been implanted in them, but that it will rather be supplemented and completed by their return. However, one should not speak of this in such a way that they will imagine that in returning to the Church they are bringing to it something substantial which it has hitherto lacked. It will be necessary to say these things clearly and openly, first because it is the truth that they themselves are seeking, and moreover because outside the truth no true union can ever be attained..... In order that so noble a work as the "union" of all Christians in one true faith and Church may daily grow into a more conspicuous part of the entire care of souls, and that the whole Catholic people may more earnestly implore this "union" from Almighty God, it will certainly be of assistance that in some appropriate way, for example through Pastoral Letters, the faithful be instructed regarding these questions and projects, the prescriptions of the Church in the matter, and the reasons on which they are based. All, especially priests and religious, should be exhorted and warmly encouraged to be zealous by their prayers and sacrifices to ripen and promote this work, and all should be reminded that nothing more effectively paves the way for the erring to find the truth and to embrace the Church than the faith of Catholics, when it is confirmed by the example of upright living.
  The Holy Office, Instruction on the ecumenical movement, 1949

Quote: 2. Having violently occupied parishes and churches with apostate priests, they have not neglected any deception or cunning to lead the children of the Catholic Church into wretched schism. Because it has always been especially characteristic of heretics and schismatics to use lies and deception, these sons of darkness are to be reckoned among those the prophet spoke of: "Woe to you deserting children who have faith in the shadow of Egypt. You have rejected the word and have hoped in trickery and rebellion." They love to deceive the unwary and the innocent and to draw them into error by deception and hypocrisy. They repeatedly state openly that they do not in the least reject the Catholic Church and its visible head but rather that they are zealous for the purity of Catholic doctrine declaring that they are the heirs of the ancient faith and the only true Catholics. But in fact they refuse to acknowledge all the divine prerogatives of the vicar of Christ on earth and do not submit to His supreme magisterium.
4. We think it is Our duty to repeat this public declaration now and to request you to preserve the unity of faith among your faithful by every possible means in accordance with your eminent zeal and your renowned virtue. For you have given notable examples of this virtue in bearing tribulations for the cause of God. You should remind them to beware of these treacherous enemies of the flock of Christ and their poisoned foods. They should totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction. They should avoid them as strangers and thieves who come only to steal, slay, and destroy. For the Church's children should consider the proper action to preserve the most precious treasure of faith, without which it is impossible to please God, as well as action calculated to achieve the goal of faith, that is the salvation of their souls, by following the straight road of justice.’
Pope Pius IX, Graves Ac Diuturnae

Quote: “Whether it is permitted Catholics to be present at, or to take part in conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement all who in any way lay claim to the name of Christian?
Reply: In the negative, and there must be complete adherence to the decree (De participation catholicorum socrati, “ad procurandam christianitatis unitatem”) on the participation of Catholics in a society “to procure the unity of Christianity”
"Meetings to procure the Unity of All Christians”, from the Decree of The Holy Office, July 8, 1927

The last three being intrinsically linked to each other, will be dealt with together:

Quote: Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23- 24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” 
Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302

Quote: ‘11. In the words of St. Leo, who continues speaking about the Holy See of Peter: "It is necessary that the Church throughout the world be united and cleave to the center of Catholic unity and ecclesiastical communion, so that whoever dares to depart from the unity of Peter might understand that he no longer shares in the divine mystery." St. Jerome adds: "Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is unholy. Those who were not in the ark of Noah perished in the flood." Just as he who does not gather with Christ, so he who does not gather with Christ's Vicar on earth, clearly scatters. How can someone who destroys the holy authority of the Vicar of Christ and who infringes on his rights gather with him? It is through these rights that the pope is the center of unity, that he has the primacy of order and jurisdiction, and that he has the full power of nurturing, ruling, and governing the universal Church.’ 

Quote: 4. You see, dearly beloved sons and venerable brothers, how much vigilance is needed to keep the disease of this terrible evil from infecting and killing your flocks. Do not cease to diligently defend your people against these pernicious errors. Saturate them with the doctrine of Catholic truth more accurately each day. Teach them that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children.[2] There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord,[3] outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church.[4] Thus, there can be no greater crime, no more hideous stain than to stand up against Christ, than to divide the Church engendered and purchased by His blood, than to forget evangelical love and to combat with the furor of hostile discord the harmony of the people of God.[5]
5. Divine worship consists in these two things: pious doctrines and good works, in such a way that doctrines without good works cannot please God, nor does God accept works divorced from religious doctrines. The narrow and difficult path which leads to life can be found not in the practice of the virtues alone or in the observance of precepts, but on the way of faith.[6] Constantly arouse your faithful people so that they will persevere ever more firmly and constantly in the profession of the Catholic religion. Let them likewise endeavor to assure their calling and their election by means of good works. While you work at the salvation of your flock, strive also, in all goodness, patience, and teaching, to recall the unfortunate strays to the one fold of Christ and to Catholic unity. Address to them especially these words of St. Augustine: "Come, brothers, if you wish, so that you may be grafted to the vine. We are saddened to see you thus cut off and lying so. Count the bishops who have occupied the See of Peter; see this uninterrupted succession of popes. See the rock against which the powers of hell will not be able to prevail."[7] "Whoever eats the lamb outside of this house is an impious person. Whoever is not in Noah's ark will perish in the flood."[8]’
Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

Quote: 8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]
9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.’

Quote: ‘3. No prerogative of the Church has been assailed more bitterly by "the enemy" than this unity of government, by means of which the "unity of the Spirit" is joined "in the bond of peace." (Ephesians iv, 3) It is quite true that the enemy has never, and never will, prevail against the Church. He has, however, succeeded in wresting from her bosom many of her children, and in some cases, even whole nations. These great losses were brought about in many instances by the wars which divided nations, by the enactment of laws inimical to the interests of religion and of virtue, or by an unbridled love for the passing goods of this world.
4. The greatest and most deplorable defection of all was the separation of the Greeks from the unity of the Church Universal. The Councils of Lyons and Florence held out hopes of healing this breach; these hopes were illusory. The schism was renewed and has lasted to the present day, with enormous injury to souls. By this great schism the Eastern Slavs, together with other nations, were also led astray and lost to the Faith, although it must be acknowledged that they remained longer in communion with the Church than many of their neighbors. As is well known, they maintained relations of one kind or another with this Apostolic See even after the schism of Michael Caerularius-relations which, despite the fact that they were interrupted by the invasions of the Tartars and Mongols, were resumed afterward and continued until they were brought to an end by the rebellious hard-headedness of their rulers.
5. On their side the Roman Pontiffs left nothing undone to bring back these peoples to the unity of the Church. Some popes even made the salvation of the Eastern Slavs one of the most important purposes of their pontificates.’
ON ST. JOSAPHAT Ecclesiam Dei Encyclical of Pope Pius XI promulgated on November 12, 1923

Quote: 5. Next let Us start with the things which concern the faith which, as We mentioned above, some are endangering in order to introduce greater freedom for mixed marriages. You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that very article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation. The words of that celebrated disciple of the apostles, martyred St. Ignatius, in his letter to the Philadelphians are relevant to this matter: "Be not deceived, my brother; if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not attain the inheritance of the kingdom of God." Moreover, St. Augustine and the other African bishops who met in the Council of Cirta in the year 412 explained the same thing at greater length: "Whoever has separated himself from the Catholic Church, no matter how laudably he lives, will not have eternal life, but has earned the anger of God because of this one crime: that he abandoned his union with Christ." Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that this indeed is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He says: "The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved." Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: "There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved." Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which the Greek Orthodox Church uses and that which other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies.’

Quote: 22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis

Quote: One who after baptism, while remanining nominally a Christian, pertinaciously denies or doubts any one of the truths which must be believed de fide divina et catholica, is a heretic..... 
1917 code of canon law, Canon 1325 s2

Lastly it is also worthwhile to look at the testimony of theologians on the issue:

Quote: " Thesis: 'In order to be a member of the Church baptism is required and is sufficient, together with the bond of unity of faith and of Catholic Communion' This thesis is de fide....

A)...All theologians teach that publicly known heretics, that is, those who belong to a heterodox sect through public profession, or those who refuse the infallible teaching authority of the Church, are excluded from the body of the Church, even if their heresy is only material heresy. Are occult heretics also excluded, who by an internal act only are separated from the Catholic faith, or who by external acts manifest their heresy, but not by a public profession? The more common opinion holds that occult heretics are always in the Churchs bosom because they preserve an external union with the body social through a profession of faith and through obedience to their legitimate pastors. All agree that infants who are validly baptised among heretics are truly and perfectly members of the Church until they become notorious heretics by public adherence to heresy.
Tanquerey, Manual of Dogmatic Theology, paras 269 and 271

(08-14-2012, 01:58 PM)Crusader_Philly Wrote: Trent you should create a thread for each different point you have. So, one thread on the ends of marriage, Castii Conubi, the 1983 code, etc.

I think if you do this, distractions can be avoided. This thread won't go anywhere.

Well as I said, I intend to put all the contradicts, well most of them in one place, I or someone else can separate it out if they wish.
(08-14-2012, 01:28 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 01:15 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 01:13 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: How can we have a conversation when you post a million things? It would have been better to start separate thread based on topic.

For your purposes perhaps, but not for mine. I simply intend to find all the relevant contradictions and put them in one place.

You seem to be trying to create an illusion of overwhelming evidence by posting a large quantity of points.  The quantity is indeed overwhelming.  The quality, however, is not.  The very first point on your list was laughable.

I am more convinced than ever that there are no serious theological problems with the recent popes, since these are the sort of tactics necessary to attempt to make a case against them.

From what I've read, there are four main theological problems with Vatican II and the post-Conciliar Pontiffs.  They are: ecclesiology, collegiality, ecumenism and religious liberty:

From the linked article:

"Vatican II teaches heresy concerning the unity of the Church, namely that the Church of Christ is not exclusively identified with the Catholic Church, but merely subsists in it. ... The teaching of Vatican II concerning ecumenism, which states that non-Catholic religions are a "means of salvation," is overtly heretical. ... The teaching of Vatican II on religious liberty, contained in Dignitatis Humanae, nearly word for word asserts the very doctrine which was condemned by Pope Pius VII in Post Tam Diuturnas, by Pope Gregory XVI in Mirari Vos, by Pope Pius IX in Quanta Cura, and by Pope Leo XIII in Libertas Praestantissimum. ... The teaching of Vatican II concerning collegiality alters the monarchical constitution of the Catholic Church, with which she was endowed by the Divine Savior.  The doctrine of Vatican II, confirmed by the 1983 Code of Canon Law, which states that the subject (the possessor) of the supreme authority of the Church is the college of bishops together with the pope, is contrary to the defined doctrine of the Council of Florence and of Vatican I."
Just to supplement TrentCath, here are some more alleged contradictions which have appeared obvious to a great many as well:

Can we resist temptation, confess Christ etc. without grace or can we?

(References are to the old Denzinger)

Popes Innocent I, Zosimus, and Boniface II

Quote:105 Can. 5. It has likewise been decided that whoever says that the grace of justification is given to us for this reason: that what we are ordered to do through free will, we may be able to accomplish more easily through grace, just as if, even if grace were not given, we could nevertheless fulfill the divine commands without it, though not indeed easily, let him he anathema. For concerning the fruits of His commands the Lord spoke not when He said: "Without me you can accomplish with greater difficulty," but when He said: "Without me you can do nothing" [John 15:5].

135 Chapter 6. That God thus operates in the hearts of men and in the free will itself, so that a holy thought, a pious plan, and every motion of good will is from God, because we can do anything good through Him,without whom we can do nothing."

180 Can. 7. If anyone affirms that without the illumination and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,--who gives to all sweetness in consenting to and believing in the truth,--through the strength of nature he can think anything good which pertains to the salvation of eternal life, as he should, or choose, or consent to salvation, that is to the evangelical proclamation, he is deceived by the heretical spirit, understanding the voice of God speaking in the Gospel:"Without me you can do nothing" [John 15:5]; and that of the Apostle: Not that we are fit to think everything by ourselves as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is,from God[2 Cor. 3:5; cf. St. Augustine].

181 Can. 8. If anyone maintains that some by mercy, but others by free will, which it is evident has been vitiated in all who have been born of the transgression of the first man, are able to come to the grace of baptism, he is proved to be inconsistent with the true faith. For he asserts that the free will of all was not weakened by the sin of the first man, or assuredly was injured in such a way, that nevertheless certain ones have the power without revelation of God to be able by themselves to seek the mystery of eternal salvation. How contrary this is, the Lord Himself proves, who testifies that not some, but no one can come to Him, except whom the Father draws[John 6:44], and just as he says to PETER:"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because fles h and blood hath not revealed it to you, but my Father, whois in heaven"; and the Apostle: No one can say Lord Jesus except in the Holy Spirit.

182 Can. 9 . "The assistance of God. It is a divine gift, both when we think rightly and when we restrain our feet from falsity and injustice; for as often as we do good, God operates in us and with us, that we may work"

186 Can. 13. The restoration of free will. Freedom of will weakened in the first man cannot be repaired except through the grace of baptism; once it has been lost, it cannot be restored except by Him by whom it could be given. Thus Truth itself says: If the Son liberates you, then you will be truly free."

193 Can. 20."That without God man can do no good. God does many good things in man, which man does not do; indeed man can do no good that God does not expect that man do".

195  Can. 22. "Those things which are peculiar to men. No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. But if man has any truth and justice, it is from that fountain for which we ought to thirst in this desert, that bedewed by some drops of water from it, we may not falter on the way."

Compare with various Popes (again see Denzinger for specific citations)

Quote:1027 27. Free will, without the help of God's grace, has only power for sin. CONDEMNED

1028 28. It is a Pelagian error to say that free will has the power to avoid any sin. CONDEMNED

1029 29. Not only are they "thieves" and "robbers" who deny that Christ is the way and "the door" of the truth and life, but also whoever teaches that there can be ascent to the way of justice (that is to any justice) otherwise than through Him, 1030 30.or, that man can resist any temptation without the help of His grace, so that he may not be led into it and not be overcome by it. CONDEMNED

1065 65. Some good, or at least not bad use of free will can be admitted only by a Pelagian error; and he who knows and teaches this, does injury to the grace of Christ. CONDEMNED

1352  2. The grace of Jesus Christ, which is the efficacious principle of every kind of good, is necessary for every good work; without it, not only is nothing done, but nothing can be done. CONDEMNED

1359 9. The grace of Christ is a supreme grace, without which we can never confess Christ, and with which we never deny Him. CONDEMNED

1388 38. Without the grace of the Liberator, the sinner is not free except to do evil. CONDEMNED

Here's an interesting one, is each power supreme in its own sphere, or is one subordinated to the other?

Pius XI
Ubi Arcano Dei

Quote:Christ reigns where the position in society which He Himself has assigned to His Church is recognized, for He bestowed on the Church the status and the constitution of a society which, by reason of the perfect ends which it is called upon to attain, must be held to be supreme in its own sphere; He also made her the depository and interpreter of His divine teachings, and, by consequence, the teacher and guide of every other society whatsoever, not of course in the sense that she should abstract in the least from their authority, each in its own sphere supreme, but that she should really perfect their authority, just as divine grace perfects human nature, and should give to them the assistance necessary for men to attain their true final end, eternal happiness, and by that very fact make them the more deserving and certain promoters of their happiness here below.

Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam
Quote:Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

See here the alleged contradictions of St. Leo put forth by Severus of Antioch and others:

Tome of Leo Wrote:For each of the forms effects in partnership with the other that which belongs to itself, the Word doing that which belongs to the Word, and the body performing the things which belong to the body.
"He whom Herod impiously designs to slay is like humanity in its beginnings; but he whom the Magi rejoice to adore on their knees is Lord of all."
"Accordingly, he who, as man, is tempted by the devil's subtlety, is the same to whom, as God, angels pay duteous service. To hunger, to thirst, to be weary, and to sleep, is evidently human. But to satisfy five thousand men with five loaves, and give to the Samaritan woman that living water, to draw which can secure him that drinks of it from ever thirsting again; to walk on the surface of the sea with feet that sink not, and by rebuking the storm to bring down the "uplifted waves," is unquestionably Divine."

Council of Ephesus
Quote:"If anyone distributes between the two persons or hypostases the expressions used either in the gospels or in the apostolic writings, whether they are used by the holy writers of Christ or by him about himself, and ascribes some to him as to a man, thought of separately from the Word from God, and others, as befitting God, to him as to the Word from God the Father, let him be anathema."

And here's a classic--is the idea of a universal bishop condemned or required?

St. Gregory the Great, Epist. VII, 33:
St. Gregory Wrote:“I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is by his pride, the precursor of anti-Christ, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of anti-Christ; for as that wicked one wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would call himself sole bishop exalteth himself above others”

Benedict XIV, Ex Quo:
Benedict XIV Wrote:In the decrees of this synod, which were confirmed after proper investigation by Pope Benedict XIII, the following words are found under the heading de fide Catholica: "For the same reason"-that is, to remove all suspicion of schism-"and to show a sincere union of the members with their head, it has decided and commanded under penalties to be applied at the judgment of the Ordinary that wherever a Roman pontiff is to be commemorated, especially at the Offertory of the Mass, it should be made in clear and definite words which can signify none other than the universal Bishop of Rome."
(Boniface III of course being the first to use this title.)

Here's a good one with the Syllabus--should we follow our reason or not when deciding how to love God?
Bl. Pius IX Wrote:15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851. CONDEMNED
Bl. Innocent XI, Coelestis Pastor Wrote:19. He who loves God in the way which reason points out or the intellect comprehends, does not love the true God. CONDEMNED

We could go on and on, especially regarding various broad and restrictive EENS quotes,  quotes on slavery, quotes on usury, quotes on the civil power of the Pope, etc., etc., etc..

Of course, I hope all are ready to jump in and show all the proper context and explain all the proper meanings of each quote (I personally believe it can be done and that making a good faith attempt at doing so is the traditional Catholic response; of course, as people know by now on this forum, I believe that Vatican II cannot annul this traditional principle; others might disagree of course).
(08-14-2012, 01:28 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 01:15 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 01:13 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: How can we have a conversation when you post a million things? It would have been better to start separate thread based on topic.

For your purposes perhaps, but not for mine. I simply intend to find all the relevant contradictions and put them in one place.

You seem to be trying to create an illusion of overwhelming evidence by posting a large quantity of points.  The quantity is indeed overwhelming.  The quality, however, is not.  The very first point on your list was laughable.

I am more convinced than ever that there are no serious theological problems with the recent popes, since these are the sort of tactics necessary to attempt to make a case against them.
(08-14-2012, 01:58 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: You're "sinning" against the standard you hold others to. Don't we all? Shoot, at least I include a response in my jabs at people like Mikemac for the most part.

I'm not dictating rules to you in your thread insofar as what you can do with this thread, but rather, physically, so to speak, in "your" thread, I'm saying you need to go tell us why that theologian is all wrong.

Have fun playing with yourself while you turn this into SSPX Copy/Paste game time.

Another post of ad hominems. Don't get me wrong it doesn't affect me, I just don't see why you wasted your time posting it or expected me to respond to it.
(08-14-2012, 02:27 PM)Cooler King Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 01:28 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 01:15 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-14-2012, 01:13 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: How can we have a conversation when you post a million things? It would have been better to start separate thread based on topic.

For your purposes perhaps, but not for mine. I simply intend to find all the relevant contradictions and put them in one place.

You seem to be trying to create an illusion of overwhelming evidence by posting a large quantity of points.  The quantity is indeed overwhelming.  The quality, however, is not.  The very first point on your list was laughable.

I am more convinced than ever that there are no serious theological problems with the recent popes, since these are the sort of tactics necessary to attempt to make a case against them.

I see FE got even more liberal while I was away.

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