Dealing with apparent contradictions in Church teaching
(08-21-2012, 05:10 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:06 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:05 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote: ???

I don't see how this is relevant nor do I see how quoting from a self help guide helps your case.

He's suggesting you could learn from a self-help book as to how to convince others of your ideas.  Not that it helps his case, so much as could help you make yours somewhat effectively.

Right, so it was irrelevant.  :LOL:

:LOL:

Well, depends on whether you actually want to convince people of the truth, or just get in fights.  Your call.  :grin:

Whats next? A quote from the 48 laws of power?  :eyeroll:

Seriously, I'll leave the self help books to the charlatans who write them and make ££££
Reply
(08-21-2012, 05:14 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:10 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:06 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:05 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote: ???

I don't see how this is relevant nor do I see how quoting from a self help guide helps your case.

He's suggesting you could learn from a self-help book as to how to convince others of your ideas.  Not that it helps his case, so much as could help you make yours somewhat effectively.

Right, so it was irrelevant.  :LOL:

:LOL:

Well, depends on whether you actually want to convince people of the truth, or just get in fights.  Your call.  :grin:

Whats next? A quote from the 48 laws of power?  :eyeroll:

Seriously, I'll leave the self help books to the charlatans who write them and make ££££

I believe this writer made $$$ to be fair.  :grin:
Reply
(08-21-2012, 05:15 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:14 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:10 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:06 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:05 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote: ???

I don't see how this is relevant nor do I see how quoting from a self help guide helps your case.

He's suggesting you could learn from a self-help book as to how to convince others of your ideas.  Not that it helps his case, so much as could help you make yours somewhat effectively.

Right, so it was irrelevant.  :LOL:

:LOL:

Well, depends on whether you actually want to convince people of the truth, or just get in fights.  Your call.  :grin:

Whats next? A quote from the 48 laws of power?  :eyeroll:

Seriously, I'll leave the self help books to the charlatans who write them and make ££££

I believe this writer made $$$ to be fair.  :grin:

Probably $$$$$ and £££ and (can't be bothered to look for euro sign)  :LOL:
Reply
(08-21-2012, 04:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: The idea that there is some good in false religions was pretty common in the Patristic period. I do not understand your objection.

And are we in the patristic era today? No, moreover Islam is a perversion of Christinaity and Judaism either cooked up by 'the prophet' or given him by the devil and hinduism is just a lot of debaucherous paganastic nonsense, certainly in Roman times (which I suspect was when they were writing) some cults introduced some good things, the idea of righteous pagans such as seneca, Cicero etc.. but these bear little in common with Vodoo (demonic) or Islam (probably demonic) or hinduism (demonic). The evidence you cite can therefore be easily distinguished (using that word in the legal sense) and therefore does not apply to the case at hand.

Since there have been times when it was OK to recognize elements of good in pagan religions, we know that is not intrinsically evil.  You seem to have some ideas about distinguishing circumstances in which it is permissible from those in which it is not, but I do not see how this distinction comes from Church teaching.
Reply
(08-21-2012, 05:24 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:15 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:14 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:10 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:06 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:05 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote: ???

I don't see how this is relevant nor do I see how quoting from a self help guide helps your case.

He's suggesting you could learn from a self-help book as to how to convince others of your ideas.  Not that it helps his case, so much as could help you make yours somewhat effectively.

Right, so it was irrelevant.  :LOL:

:LOL:

Well, depends on whether you actually want to convince people of the truth, or just get in fights.  Your call.  :grin:

Whats next? A quote from the 48 laws of power?  :eyeroll:

Seriously, I'll leave the self help books to the charlatans who write them and make ££££

I believe this writer made $$$ to be fair.  :grin:

Probably $$$$$ and £££ and (can't be bothered to look for euro sign)  :LOL:

ALT+0128 €€€€ (know it by heart, randomly).
Reply
(08-21-2012, 05:24 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: The idea that there is some good in false religions was pretty common in the Patristic period. I do not understand your objection.

And are we in the patristic era today? No, moreover Islam is a perversion of Christinaity and Judaism either cooked up by 'the prophet' or given him by the devil and hinduism is just a lot of debaucherous paganastic nonsense, certainly in Roman times (which I suspect was when they were writing) some cults introduced some good things, the idea of righteous pagans such as seneca, Cicero etc.. but these bear little in common with Vodoo (demonic) or Islam (probably demonic) or hinduism (demonic). The evidence you cite can therefore be easily distinguished (using that word in the legal sense) and therefore does not apply to the case at hand.

Since there have been times when it was OK to recognize elements of good in pagan religions, we know that is not intrinsically evil.  You seem to have some ideas about distinguishing circumstances in which it is permissible from those in which it is not, but I do not see how this distinction comes from Church teaching.

Voodoo is no more nor less demonic than the cult of Jupiter, also.  Demons entice us with lesser goods.  To lead from these deceitful goods to the Good of the Faith, acknowledging the good that is there is a wise first step.  And if you don't think there is any good in Islam or Hinduism that appeals to their adherents, TrentCath, you are unlikely to make the ultimate Good appealing.
Reply
(08-21-2012, 05:05 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote: ???

I don't see how this is relevant nor do I see how quoting from a self help guide helps your case.

He's suggesting you could learn from a self-help book as to how to convince others of your ideas.  Not that it helps his case, so much as could help you make yours somewhat effectively.

What I was saying is there are actual texts that instruct people how to draw other people to their ideas in honest ways. People have studied this. One of the points was being friendly, and finding commonalities. TrentCath basically said it was better to emphasize the differences in these endeavors. I pointed out a nice book he can read which might help clarify at least in part that that was not a good strategy.
Reply
(08-21-2012, 05:56 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:05 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:55 PM)TrentCath Wrote: ???

I don't see how this is relevant nor do I see how quoting from a self help guide helps your case.

He's suggesting you could learn from a self-help book as to how to convince others of your ideas.  Not that it helps his case, so much as could help you make yours somewhat effectively.

What I was saying is there are actual texts that instruct people how to draw other people to their ideas in honest ways. People have studied this. One of the points was being friendly, and finding commonalities. TrentCath basically said it was better to emphasize the differences in these endeavors. I pointed out a nice book he can read which might help clarify at least in part that that was not a good strategy.

Book by psychologist charlatan trumps instruction of the holly office explicitly reprobating this? I don't think so  :shame:
Reply
(08-21-2012, 05:28 PM)Parmandur Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 05:24 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: The idea that there is some good in false religions was pretty common in the Patristic period. I do not understand your objection.

And are we in the patristic era today? No, moreover Islam is a perversion of Christinaity and Judaism either cooked up by 'the prophet' or given him by the devil and hinduism is just a lot of debaucherous paganastic nonsense, certainly in Roman times (which I suspect was when they were writing) some cults introduced some good things, the idea of righteous pagans such as seneca, Cicero etc.. but these bear little in common with Vodoo (demonic) or Islam (probably demonic) or hinduism (demonic). The evidence you cite can therefore be easily distinguished (using that word in the legal sense) and therefore does not apply to the case at hand.

Since there have been times when it was OK to recognize elements of good in pagan religions, we know that is not intrinsically evil.  You seem to have some ideas about distinguishing circumstances in which it is permissible from those in which it is not, but I do not see how this distinction comes from Church teaching.

Voodoo is no more nor less demonic than the cult of Jupiter, also.  Demons entice us with lesser goods.  To lead from these deceitful goods to the Good of the Faith, acknowledging the good that is there is a wise first step.  And if you don't think there is any good in Islam or Hinduism that appeals to their adherents, TrentCath, you are unlikely to make the ultimate Good appealing.

See, this is where the lack of common sense comes in:

a) Vodoo is explicitly demonic, it essentially is 100% demonic, what with witchdoctors and all
b) praising false religions and going on and on about their great legacies, their greatnesss etc... is not leading someone to Christ
c) praying with them isn't leading them to Christ
d) not telling them to convert, isn't leading them to Christ
e) making up blasphemies that Islam and Christianity are brother religions etc... isn't going to convert someone and it offends God and those who were martyed by Muslims
Reply
(08-21-2012, 05:24 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:58 PM)TrentCath Wrote:
(08-21-2012, 04:47 PM)JayneK Wrote: The idea that there is some good in false religions was pretty common in the Patristic period. I do not understand your objection.

And are we in the patristic era today? No, moreover Islam is a perversion of Christinaity and Judaism either cooked up by 'the prophet' or given him by the devil and hinduism is just a lot of debaucherous paganastic nonsense, certainly in Roman times (which I suspect was when they were writing) some cults introduced some good things, the idea of righteous pagans such as seneca, Cicero etc.. but these bear little in common with Vodoo (demonic) or Islam (probably demonic) or hinduism (demonic). The evidence you cite can therefore be easily distinguished (using that word in the legal sense) and therefore does not apply to the case at hand.

Since there have been times when it was OK to recognize elements of good in pagan religions, we know that is not intrinsically evil.  You seem to have some ideas about distinguishing circumstances in which it is permissible from those in which it is not, but I do not see how this distinction comes from Church teaching.

That might be because you didn't actually look at the long list of teaching previously provided? The issue by the way is not recognising some elements of good in false religions but rather praising them as a whole, making up nonsense abou being brother religions, asking saints to protect and bless them etc...  since this is crystal clear from the quotes provided, you and others are simply engaging in sophistry and mental gymnastics in order to make the modern popes 'square block' of unorthodoxy fit into the 'circle hole' of Orthodoxy.
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