Pussy riot jailed: Vladimir Putin faces international outcry
#51
DrBombay, if you wish a question that you have to be answered, please feel free to create a thread at some point. If you are asking questions to individual members in various de-railed threads, most members who can't be bothered sifting through pages of thread will simply not come across the question. I'm sure there are quite a few traditionalists who would be willing to answer your concerns.

:tiphat:
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#52
(08-19-2012, 03:36 AM)TraditionalistThomas Wrote: DrBombay, if you wish a question that you have to be answered, please feel free to create a thread at some point. If you are asking questions to individual members in various de-railed threads, most members who can't be bothered sifting through pages of thread will simply not come across the question. I'm sure there are quite a few traditionalists who would be willing to answer your concerns.

:tiphat:

So I should cater to the lazy?  My very spirit rebels at the thought of making anything easy for others.  I shall take it under advisement Thomas.  Perhaps tomorrow, I just realized how horribly late it is, or maybe it's early.  And I have miles to go before I sleep.  Good night.  :tiphat:
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#53
*shrug*

DocBombay, I'd love to take a crack at answering some of your questions (though honestly, what is needed are not my answers, but authoritative answers).  Unfortunately, a) I'm easily distracted, b) I don't know all the answers, c) my time is finite, and d) all of the above.

I know and actually agree with you that there is cognitive dissonance in the trad movement-- however, I think that you make a bigger deal of it than it needs to be.  As Cardinal Newman said, "A thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."  The proofs Our Lord has given of His Church, the Church as she existed prior to Vatican II and as she still exists, although in a terribly abused state, today-- those proofs are sufficient.  If there are problems we can't personally solve, that's not necessarily a huge deal.  God will sort it out when the time is right.  In the meantime, we just keep trying to be good, traditional Catholics, the best way we know how.  We don't dodge the questions, but we don't pretend we have all the answers, either.  At least, we shouldn't.

I mean, look at what happened in the time of the Great Western Schism.  You had St. Vincent Ferrier and St. Catherine of Sienna backing different popes, for heaven's sake.  Some situations are just too inextricable even for a Doctor of Theology like St. Vincent was (after all, Catherine was right, you know), so how are they required of an ordinary Catholic?

Do your best, leave God the rest, donchaknow.
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#54
(08-19-2012, 10:48 AM)JuniorCouncilor Wrote: *shrug*

DocBombay, I'd love to take a crack at answering some of your questions (though honestly, what is needed are not my answers, but authoritative answers).  Unfortunately, a) I'm easily distracted, b) I don't know all the answers, c) my time is finite, and d) all of the above.

I know and actually agree with you that there is cognitive dissonance in the trad movement-- however, I think that you make a bigger deal of it than it needs to be.  As Cardinal Newman said, "A thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."  The proofs Our Lord has given of His Church, the Church as she existed prior to Vatican II and as she still exists, although in a terribly abused state, today-- those proofs are sufficient.  If there are problems we can't personally solve, that's not necessarily a huge deal.  God will sort it out when the time is right.  In the meantime, we just keep trying to be good, traditional Catholics, the best way we know how.  We don't dodge the questions, but we don't pretend we have all the answers, either.  At least, we shouldn't.

I mean, look at what happened in the time of the Great Western Schism.  You had St. Vincent Ferrier and St. Catherine of Sienna backing different popes, for heaven's sake.  Some situations are just too inextricable even for a Doctor of Theology like St. Vincent was (after all, Catherine was right, you know), so how are they required of an ordinary Catholic?

Do your best, leave God the rest, donchaknow.
THIS
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#55
(08-19-2012, 03:26 AM)DrBombay Wrote:
(08-19-2012, 02:59 AM)Walty Wrote:
(08-19-2012, 02:43 AM)DrBombay Wrote:
(08-19-2012, 02:11 AM)Walty Wrote:
(08-19-2012, 01:47 AM)DrBombay Wrote: And it is a pity about how disobedient the pope has been.  Horribly and scandalously disobedient.  But I'll admit I've been rather disobedient to God and his holy Mother as well.  Will you admit the same, James?  Because it seems to me most Fatimaniacs portray themselves as spending a good 15 hours a day kneeling on broken glass praying the rosary and subsisting on a raw potato or two each week.  But maybe you're different?  Maybe you'll admit that you need to have your nose rubbed in your disobedience as well, right alongside me and the pope?  Can you drink from that chalice James?  Can any Fatimaniac?

In all sincerity, Doc, why are you so angry?  It's not just your assertions but the way that you assert them.  You may be a trad but the anger that you have for traditionalism as a movement and trads as a group always throws me for a loop.

You're often so condescending with people who are sincerely trying to discuss something with you.  I don't fall under this list, I know.  I'm an ass right back to you, and most of the time I shouldn't be.  Given that, I don't take it personally when you dish it back.  In fact, in some ways I really appreciate it.

But most people genuinely like you as a poster and are just trying to discuss something with you.  We're all trying to be good Catholics, man.  I'll admit that there are all sorts of problems with trad Catholics, but being facetious about it doesn't seem like a tactic that will help change the situation.  In fact, it seems like it just feeds right back into the negative connotations associated with traditionalists.

I don't like hypocrisy.  For example, there are people here who will spend pages and pages copying and pasting from the Dimond Bros. or Traditio, trying to prove the the NO is an invalid Mass.  Then they'll go on another thread and feign outrage at Communion in the Hand.  I'm sorry, but if the NO is invalid then what people are receiving in their hand is just bread, so shut your pie hole.  If people want to believe the NO is invalid, be my guest.  Just don't pretend to be outraged by "liturgical abuses" at an invalid liturgy.  Maybe I'm odd, but I don't spend a lot of time worried about what Lutherans do at their services, whatever they call them.  You'd think the radtrads around here would feel the same about the NO, but it's like they have an obsession.  They can't be happy with their own little TLM, they have to dump on the NO because....well, I have no idea.  

As I said, I haven't met anyone recently that genuinely wants to discuss anything around here.  I've had quite a few PMs from people with questions or concerns, but they won't engage me publicly.  One even decided he couldn't stand the SSPX cognitive dissonance so he decided to join the Old Catholics.  I'd rather rub Tabasco sauce in my eyeballs than join the Old Catholics, but this is what double speak leads to.

Sarcasm isn't probably the best way to approach these questions, I'll admit that.  But sometimes it can be an effective way of pointing out how absurd certain positions are.  Granted it tends to get people's backs up and makes them defensive, but even if some of these questions are asked politely, people are going to get defensive.  People don't want to deal with these kinds of things, it makes them uncomfortable.  I get that.  It even does that to trad priests in real life.  I've tried and without sarcasm too.  It's nearly impossible to get an articulate, well-reasoned answer.  "Have faith" is always the final, fall-back answer and I'm weary of it.  Not that I have anything against faith, but God gave us a brain for a reason I would think.  

I guess I'm missing this here.  Maybe we spend our time on a lot of different threads.  It's astonishing to me that someone would jump from the SSPX to the Old Catholics.

I honesty feel like most of the people on FE (and most trads I meet) are decent, genuine people.  They try to be Catholic and make sense of this very weird and very confusing situation.  And I genuinely feel like there are a lot of posters here who are intelligent, somber, and focused. 

In fact, James is one of them.  I don't see him being hypocritical, whiney, phoney, etc.  And yet whatever you're discussing with him has really hit a nerve.

I mean, on one hand it seems like you're upset with how crabby trads are, but your response to just be even more crabby.  And I get that response.  I feel that way too.

Maybe I'm being overdramatic but my point is this: I think you add a lot to the forum.  You're sharp.  You call a spade a spade.  You don't often get bogged down in theory but actually help pull things back into focus.  Unfortunately, however, traditionalism and Catholicism in general have seemed to make you even more crabby lately than you already normally are.  It's almost as if you intellectually assent to traditionalism but are sick of being a trad.

I'm not upset with crabby trads.  Most of the people on FE are decent, they just aren't capable, apparently, of answering pointed questions from other trads.  Prots, neo-Cats and atheists, sure.  But it's like there's a wall built up in their brain and they are unable to process anything that challenges the trad status quo.  Wait, you mean there might be someone other than a neo-Cat questioning what we do and believe?  And they just shut down.

Fatima is another animal entirely.  There are holes in that you could drive several large trucks through, mostly the post-apparition apparitions but I'm also suspicious of all the anti-Russia stuff.  I mean, it could've been written by a CIA agent at the height of the Cold War.  Very convenient. 

It's not that I'm sick of being trad, I'm just sick of being.  I don't have a death wish and I'm not suicidal, I just wouldn't mind not waking up one day, if that makes sense.  I wouldn't even call it acedia or depression, it's more like ennui.  Like people outside in freezing weather who know they'll die of hypothermia soon and they feel like lying down and going to sleep.  I'm tired of having all these stupid questions in my head.  I'd say I'm over thinking everything, but thinking has never been one of my strengths.

I've felt like that for 20 years, at least
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#56
Flee to the arms of Our Lady to find solace.
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#57
I don't think Putin really give a rat's arse about an "International Outcry".  He probably enjoys the tough-guy image.

Most Russians want these idiots jailed.
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#58
If skinheads had an entirely peaceful sit down protest in a synagogue in New York, LA or London to protest the corruption of secular Jews in banking and the media, would the international media defend their right of free speech or would it be labelled as a hate crime and the perpetrators jailed?

Rhetorical question of course, we all know what would happen, so this has got nothing to do with freedom of speech.

The skinheads should try it just to make a point.  A completely silent peaceful protest.

Look at the reaction and accuse the media of being utter two-faced hypocrites.
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#59
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#60
All just a media circus now. Femen activist cuts down a Crucifix in Ukraine with a chainsaw.

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