Oy... I hate to do this!
#21
(08-26-2012, 02:27 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote: People should ask themselves if the validity of this mass makes it worth attending.

Also, nice catch Charlesh.

You could always take one out of your wallet.
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#22
I don't see the red M on the dollar bill, philly.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#23
Do you see it here?

[Image: tcw-the-mason.jpg]
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#24
Time to dive into St. Irenaeus's "Adversus haereses," I sense the gnostics will follow short after these masons in popping up to battle the Church once again. St. Augustine, pray for us.
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#25
(08-25-2012, 10:06 PM)DrBombay Wrote: We must just be thankful, then, that the NO is completely and utterly invalid.  Indeed, and that the NO rite of ordination is invalid as well.

This is really a non-story because it occurred at a non-Mass said by a non-priest.  It's no more scandalous than if it had happened at a Methodist hootenanny. 

Why must I be the one that has to always connect the dots I wonder?  ???

Can't tell if trolling...  ??? :LOL:
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#26
(08-26-2012, 09:53 AM)TraditionalistThomas Wrote:
(08-25-2012, 10:06 PM)DrBombay Wrote: We must just be thankful, then, that the NO is completely and utterly invalid.  Indeed, and that the NO rite of ordination is invalid as well.

This is really a non-story because it occurred at a non-Mass said by a non-priest.  It's no more scandalous than if it had happened at a Methodist hootenanny. 

Why must I be the one that has to always connect the dots I wonder?  ???

Can't tell if trolling...  ??? :LOL:

The Doctor keeps you guessing. Historically, though I think he has not held these positions, and neither do I.
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#27
(08-26-2012, 02:15 AM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote:
(08-26-2012, 12:54 AM)DrBombay Wrote:
(08-26-2012, 12:47 AM)Adeodatus01 Wrote: PtR, I don't think it's right to say that "no one" has been disciplined. But there hasn't been enough, surely.

Assuming that the Pope actually hears of this (do you have his email address? I don't. Anyway, I'm sure that people read his mail for him and give him summaries), which is by no means a given, what is the priority? What I mean is, anything he does requires lots of meetings and analysis. That's because the Pope chooses not to put himself in a position of acting rashly. What if it's not what it looks like? I know, it surely is... but there are forms to be followed. An investigation has to be opened, people have to have a chance to respond to the findings, etc.

I don't know that this is the optimal way. If I were Pope (which would last like 2 days before I would be murdered), I would be a Papal Bull in the china shop. I would wreck shit like wrecking shit was going out of style. But I cannot say with 100% certainty that it would work. What if the local "bishop's conference" (always slated for a wrecking) disobeyed? What, practically speaking, could I do about it?

This isn't some Dan Brown novel where the Pope has a bunch of giant albino ninjas he can sent out to delete anybody who steps out of line. This is the real world, where the Vatican doesn't actually have all that much practical power.

Think of it this way:
Pope: "This priest is defrocked for offering a Masonic Mass."
Brazilian Bishop (BB): "No he's not, I authorized it."
Pope: "Well then you're removed from your post."
BB: "No I'm not. I run the church in Brazil."
Pope: "OK. You're defrocked too then. Pack your bags, chumpus."
BB: "I don't think I will. I think we Brazilian bishops will just continue to own all this property, all these assets, and everything else around here."
Pope: "Well then you're all fired. And Brazil is under Interdict until you relinquish the assets. I'll send some boys down to sign all the papers."
BB: "Good luck getting them through customs. We're now the National Church of Brazil and we hereby legitimize socialism, Masonry, abortion and gay marriage."
Pope: "You can't do that."
BB: "Just did."
Pope: "Well then I'll have you thrown out!"
BB: "By who?"
Pope: "The Brazilian government."
BB: "Oh, you mean all those Freemasons and socialists? I don't think they're going to do what you say."

I mean, isn't that more or less how it would go, *if* there were a recalcitrant group of bishops? I'm not saying the Brazilian bishops are, or that the local ordinary authorized this Mass, but I'm just saying that I don't know what the Pope could actually do. If someone knows what he could do, I'd be interested to hear it.

So if the Pope can't really take direct action, what's the alternative? It kicks down into the CDF, CDW, etc. and takes about 8 years to trickle through the bureaucracy before something can be concretely done about it. I suppose.

Radtrad doesn't want to hear you talk sense.  Radtrad just knows that the pope can solve everything with one stroke of his pen but because he's a modernist he refuses to do so! Radtrad knows the pope has absolute power, he just won't exercise it!  If Radtrad can exercise absolute power in the World of Warcraft, then the pope can too.

I would be more inclined to agree with you if Paul VI, John Paul II, and now Benedict XVI didn't flex their muscles with little ol Marcel Lefebvre, his seminary in Switzerland, and the four bishops he consecrated. Just sayin'  :tiphat:

"Little" and "ol" being the key words here.  Of course the pope can squash a trad bishop.  A trad bishop isn't going to take an entire nation into schism with him.  Try leaning too hard on the cardinal archbishop of Los Angeles or Washington D.C. however, and see what happens.  It wouldn't be pretty. 

Of course, in radtrad fantasy world, the pope can just send in the Swiss Guard to remove recalcitrant bishops from their sees.  Simple as that. Unfortunately for radtrad, in real life there are all sorts of shades of gray.  And even grey.
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#28
The Pope has the ability and yes...even the duty to excommunicate dissidents. I would settle for bishops excommunicating so-called Catholic politicians that support abortions and sod marriages.

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#29
(08-26-2012, 02:58 PM)Petertherock Wrote: The Pope has the ability and yes...even the duty to excommunicate dissidents. I would settle for bishops excommunicating so-called Catholic politicians that support abortions and sod marriages.

Of course the pope has the ability.  The question is, what would it accomplish?  What if he decides tomorrow to excommunicate (just using an example here) the archbishop of New York.  The archbishop proceeds to give the middle finger to the pope and ignores him, living on diocesan property, saying Mass in the cathedral and continuing to act as the diocesan ordinary.  What exactly is the pope supposed to do in that case, pray tell?  What legal standing in a US court does the pope have?  I would say, none.  Can you imagine a US court ordering an American bishop to vacate his see?  Don't be ridiculous. 

It's better to act as if one has authority while not exercising it, than to attempt to exercise it and find out one has none. 
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#30
So why bother having vows of obedience for the clergy at all? Heck...why bother having Church law? You're OK...I'm OK...we're all OK!

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