Liturgical abuse before Vatican II
#11
(08-26-2012, 10:50 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote:
(08-26-2012, 10:00 PM)DrBombay Wrote: I remember reading on CAF a few years ago someone who insisted that one of the priests at his parish said a Low Mass in 7 minutes back in the day.  I called BS on that one and was warned off by the mod.  Meh. 

I've heard 15, but 7 seems to be stretching it. The fastest low Mass I've been to was about 30. Most run 45.

Same here, done by FSSP. Excellent Latin and was blazing and it still took forty minutes. But regardless, even if it was done in seven minutes, impossible, how is that drawn up to be an abuse?  ???
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#12
The only way I can even conceive of a priest doing a 7 minute, from sacristy to sacristy, low Mass would be if he said the first words of each prayers only. So, Pater noster....mumbling...et ne nos inducas in tentationem.

7 Minutes for an entire low mass seems impossible.
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#13
(08-26-2012, 11:49 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote: But regardless, even if it was done in seven minutes, impossible, how is that drawn up to be an abuse?  ???

It might not violate any rubric, but it's still showing massive disrespect toward the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Some weeks ago, Rorate posted this anecdote by the bishop of Venice in Florida:
Bp. Robert Lynch Wrote:My personal memory of the liturgy prior to Vatican II is an awful one. I remember the daily Requiem Masses screeched by the eighth grade girls of St. Charles Borromeo parish in Peru, Indiana, mandatory prior to the start of every school day, and even with their screeching, the Mass gratefully only lasted about twenty minutes. Communion distributed to the kneeling at the altar rail was more comic than reverent (remember hearing the words “Corpus Domini. . .as the priest started at one end and then eternam” as he reached the thirtieth person kneeling?). Also strong in my memory remain Masses on Holy Days of Obligation when at the beginning of Mass, during the Offertory and at the Pater Noster, the assistant priests would come out and give communion to anyone who needed to “duck out” and get back to work (this was especially true at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York even when the Cardinal was the celebrant). Adult choirs attempting Mozart were only slightly better in most churches than the eighth grade girls at St. Charles. My grandparents and parents taught us to distract ourselves during Mass by following their example and either praying the Rosary continuously throughout Mass or attempting to follow along using a Missal which had Latin on one side of the fold and the English translation on the other. It was mystery, for sure, but not the kind of mystery which is reverentially spoken of now for the past.


On the part in red, a commenter added:
Old Trad' Wrote:the practice of giving communion before, anytime during, and after, the Mass was so common that old rubrics books actually contain rules for them.


It might not be technically abuse. But, it shows that the liturgical reform didn't flip the 'reverence' switch off... it was already in that position.
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#14
(08-27-2012, 12:23 AM)m.PR Wrote:
(08-26-2012, 11:49 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote: But regardless, even if it was done in seven minutes, impossible, how is that drawn up to be an abuse?  ???

It might not violate any rubric, but it's still showing massive disrespect toward the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Some weeks ago, Rorate posted this anecdote by the bishop of Venice in Florida:
Bp. Robert Lynch Wrote:My personal memory of the liturgy prior to Vatican II is an awful one. I remember the daily Requiem Masses screeched by the eighth grade girls of St. Charles Borromeo parish in Peru, Indiana, mandatory prior to the start of every school day, and even with their screeching, the Mass gratefully only lasted about twenty minutes. Communion distributed to the kneeling at the altar rail was more comic than reverent (remember hearing the words “Corpus Domini. . .as the priest started at one end and then eternam” as he reached the thirtieth person kneeling?). Also strong in my memory remain Masses on Holy Days of Obligation when at the beginning of Mass, during the Offertory and at the Pater Noster, the assistant priests would come out and give communion to anyone who needed to “duck out” and get back to work (this was especially true at St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York even when the Cardinal was the celebrant). Adult choirs attempting Mozart were only slightly better in most churches than the eighth grade girls at St. Charles. My grandparents and parents taught us to distract ourselves during Mass by following their example and either praying the Rosary continuously throughout Mass or attempting to follow along using a Missal which had Latin on one side of the fold and the English translation on the other. It was mystery, for sure, but not the kind of mystery which is reverentially spoken of now for the past.


On the part in red, a commenter added:
Old Trad' Wrote:the practice of giving communion before, anytime during, and after, the Mass was so common that old rubrics books actually contain rules for them.


It might not be technically abuse. But, it shows that the liturgical reform didn't flip the 'reverence' switch off... it was already in that position.

Yeah, I guess the old rule still applies: If you don't want to do something you are told to do, just do it really bad and they'll never ask you to do it again. In this case, these priests didn't want to say a reverent Mass. Thus, they said Mass poorly. And, soon, they never had to say a reverent Mass again, thanks to the NO coming along.
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#15
15 minutes is a dream too. Try it yourself just read the Mass for a day in fifteen minutes while sitting. Granted those priests were fluent in Latin, though American priests had their accent. In my parish the altar was huge and it was a stroll from the Epistle side to the Gospel side. The two priest I mentioned would speak almost at machine gun speeds, and the altar boys could barely keep up. All the altar boys grumbled at the sped because it was hard, but were glad to get done and be on their way to their next move of the day.

A little aside that parish was a rich parish in those days and the Church was an exact replica of a Renaissance Italian Church like in Florence or Sienna. It was magnificent, with marble from Italy everywhere and real actual Persian hand made carpets. Talk about awe especially when you're a kid. It was like a mini-vatican. We had the Bishop as our Pastor and he was always coming and going in limosines, a crew of priests, missionaries would visit regularly, the sisters were everywhere, and us kids got all of the low down. Oh and from a kid's perspective it had wonderful tunnels and passageways leading all through the compound. We kids in sixth, seventh, and eighth were taught to sing parts for a Mass for a Cardinal (can't remember which, now) who's hat was being sent to the ceiling, and politicians like the original Mayor Daley came. Even the gymnasium was administered by an ex-Bear star. We were rich in culture but not in money.

tim
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#16
(08-27-2012, 07:18 AM)Tim Wrote: 15 minutes is a dream too. Try it yourself just read the Mass for a day in fifteen minutes while sitting. Granted those priests were fluent in Latin, though American priests had their accent. In my parish the altar was huge and it was a stroll from the Epistle side to the Gospel side. The two priest I mentioned would speak almost at machine gun speeds, and the altar boys could barely keep up. All the altar boys grumbled at the sped because it was hard, but were glad to get done and be on their way to their next move of the day.

A little aside that parish was a rich parish in those days and the Church was an exact replica of a Renaissance Italian Church like in Florence or Sienna. It was magnificent, with marble from Italy everywhere and real actual Persian hand made carpets. Talk about awe especially when you're a kid. It was like a mini-vatican. We had the Bishop as our Pastor and he was always coming and going in limosines, a crew of priests, missionaries would visit regularly, the sisters were everywhere, and us kids got all of the low down. Oh and from a kid's perspective it had wonderful tunnels and passageways leading all through the compound. We kids in sixth, seventh, and eighth were taught to sing parts for a Mass for a Cardinal (can't remember which, now) who's hat was being sent to the ceiling, and politicians like the original Mayor Daley came. Even the gymnasium was administered by an ex-Bear star. We were rich in culture but not in money.

tim

I just saw a show on the History Channel about building movers.  They did a nice little bit about a church in Chicago, Our Lady of Sorrows I think it was.  Anyhoo, when the city widened a street, they had to move the church about 100 yards back. So, they just picked up the whole thing and moved it. It was quite fascinating how they did it. I think it was in the 30s, maybe later.
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#17
I had to search CAF to make sure I was remembering correctly.  Sadly, I was.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.ph...post932464

Quote:In all charity, you might not be old enough to have attended the seven-minute (or shorter) TLM some priests could exectue on a Sunday morning. They were about as reverent as the morning chow line in boot camp. They were not limited to the low Masses, but also high Masses. If some priests could have gotten the communicants to open their mouths wider, I am almost positve the Sacred Host would have gone sailing like a frisbee into mouths. The dialogue between the priest and server sounded like that guy who does the super-speeded voice on commercials. I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am merely stating the truth. This could happen again, nothing to prevent it from happening again.

It is simpler to abuse a Mass in Latin because not everybody is exactly sure what is supposed to happen, and also because the possibility of anybody questioning Father on his actions is remote.
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#18
Frankly Bishop Lynch seems to have an agenda. Read it closely he is vaguely remembering and not saying it was that way just seemed. Perhaps he is a devotee of the New Mass.  Girls screeching ? Oh my were they Only allowed to sing or is there another reason at work here, like maybe little Mary Brophy didn't Like Bobby Lynch ? Or even worse he couldn't sing ?

Sheesh.CAF is unadulterated horse manure.

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#19
(08-27-2012, 10:10 AM)DrBombay Wrote: I had to search CAF to make sure I was remembering correctly.  Sadly, I was.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.ph...post932464

Quote:In all charity, you might not be old enough to have attended the seven-minute (or shorter) TLM some priests could exectue on a Sunday morning. They were about as reverent as the morning chow line in boot camp. They were not limited to the low Masses, but also high Masses. If some priests could have gotten the communicants to open their mouths wider, I am almost positve the Sacred Host would have gone sailing like a frisbee into mouths. The dialogue between the priest and server sounded like that guy who does the super-speeded voice on commercials. I am not trying to be disrespectful. I am merely stating the truth. This could happen again, nothing to prevent it from happening again.

It is simpler to abuse a Mass in Latin because not everybody is exactly sure what is supposed to happen, and also because the possibility of anybody questioning Father on his actions is remote.

I'd be curious to see a video of a low Mass played in fast forward so that it is over in 7 minutes or less. I assume the priest would sound like Mickey Mouse and look like the Flash moving from epistle to gospel and back. And High Mass in 7 minutes? That I don't even want to see, I know it couldn't happen: I've heard my fair share of 7-minute Graduals for pete's sake!
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#20
(08-27-2012, 10:29 AM)Tim Wrote: Frankly Bishop Lynch seems to have an agenda.
With due respect to His Excellency, I had this same impression, Tim.  None of the things he describes seem so terrible to me. Daily requiem masses and choirs attempting Mozart:  if only that happened today... His description of communion as "comic" is particularly puzzling.  Not sure how else he might expect it to be done. Also, as a working person with a tight schedule I might actually appreciate special provisions made for daily communion as he describes.  That's just me, though.
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