Liturgical abuse before Vatican II
#31
(08-27-2012, 03:53 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(08-27-2012, 03:01 PM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: I'd take a "7 minute Mass" over a polka or clown Mass.

#justsaying

#fasho

Or even the "most solemn and respectful and by-the-books and reverent" Novus Ordo Mass!

And pardon, I have to vomit for having typed that all out with a straight face.
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#32
It's an abuse just to say Mass instead of pray Mass. High speed Mass is doing a job, not having a time with God.

It was (is?) an abuse that priests said Mass as part of a job, to get the money from the stipendia and earn their living, which was the reason why priests sometimes said as much Masses they could, without the feeling of the heavenly Sacrifice.

It happened before V2 and it could happen again when celebration of Mass is done without our heart - Habemus corda ad Dominum!

I celebrate a weekday OF Mass in 25-30 minutes, an EF Low Mass in 40-45 minutes, depending on the length of the texts, the extra commemorarions etc. Sollemnities of course longer. A lot quicker seems an abuse to me as such.

I hear older priests say, they used to be subdeacon in f.e. a Requiem Mass and putting the paten in their pocket and praying the breviary while standing/kneeling with the humeral veil on the shoulders. I must admit, those priests tell those stories because they hate me celebrating the EF Mass, as if it wouldn't be that holy. It might be true they did unholy things like that. They are not convincing me that the TLM was bad as such of course, just that I understand better why they abandoned it so easily. I am deeply convinced that one of the major reasons for the Council to change the Mass so radically, was the lack of praying spirit among a (larger?) part of the clergy. At least in my country (the Netherlands) there was too much mechanical celebration and not enough spirituality.

Now the younger clergy (like me) is re-discovering the deep spirituality of the EF Mass and from the praying experience we don't make a 'job' of it, or an attempt to finish it quickly. Being the same reason btw why I also celebrate the OF Mass with the same attitude, using as much of the EF rubrics as I can, within the lines of the liturgical rules. Bowing f.e. for the Holy Name is not forbidden, but doing so even in the OF Mass is deepening my praying spirit.
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#33
Here is a take from a priest now in his 90's. He wrote this in response to allegations of priests mumbling the Latin back in the day.

Quote:I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.

The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?

Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.

My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.

My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.

Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!

Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.


http://www.newoxfordreview.org/letters.j...04-letters

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#34
:amen: to Father's (kingofspades) post above.

It's clear Bp. Lynch does have an agenda. But, it's important to know how those who didn't mind the liturgical reform saw what came before in order to understand what came after and more effectively provide an antidote to it.

Here's a relevant passage from the book The American Catholic Parish, edited by Jay Dolan (this particular part was written by historian Stephen Shaw).
The American Catholic Parish v. II, pp.363-364 Wrote:...many people were unwilling or unable to accept these changes, as the following "lament" from Darlington, Wisconsin, testifies:

Latin's gone, peace is too; singin' and shoutin' from every pew. Altar's turned around, priest is too; Commentators yellin': "Page 22." Communion rail's gone, stand up straight! Kneelin' suddenly went out of date... rosary's out, psalms are in; hardly ever hear a word against sin. Listen to the lector, hear how he reads; Please stop rattlin' them rosary beads... I hope all changes are just about done; That they don't drop Bingo, before I"ve won. (Holy Rosary Bulletin, January 31, 1965).

But in the very next bulletin, a "liberal" had the last laugh, for "Sleep is gone, dozing is, too. Wakeful participation is forced upon you... Communion is a meal, no magic feast. I say 'Amen' at least. I hope the changes are barely begun - because to the living improvement's fun."

It's baffling to me how someone could have accumulated as much toxic as the liberal above expressed.



A post by user SaintSebastian, from last year, in a thread about a Gay "Mass" in Boston talks about some nasty liturgical abuse from the Middle Ages:
(06-10-2011, 02:25 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: Similar stuff wasn't unheard of historically at TLMs either. Honestly, I think it was the Jansenist counterweight that kept things going pretty good the last few centuries, until recent times. Anyway, I recently was able to get my hands on a volume of letters from St. Vincent de Paul**. Either during the time he was on the French Council of Conscience or during the early period when his congregation was focused on the reform of priests (before the religious wars changed their focus to the poor), he made it a priority to eliminate a particular practice which was prevalent in various French dioceses. Young men would dress scantily as cherubs and simulate certain abominable acts to the delight of the worshippers present. I was actually pretty shocked by this, even for that time period which spawned the Reformation, but I guess it goes to show there is nothing new under the sun. I'm not sure if this practice was prevalent outside of France as St. Vincent had not extended his mission outside that country at that time.

**Letters of St. Vincent de Paul, translated and edited by Joseph Leonard; with an introduction by Henri Bremond.
London : Burns, Oates & Washbourne, ltd, [1937] (I can't cite the exact letter as I no longer have the book).
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#35
Quote:Latin's gone, peace is too; singin' and shoutin' from every pew. Altar's turned around, priest is too; Commentators yellin': "Page 22." Communion rail's gone, stand up straight! Kneelin' suddenly went out of date... rosary's out, psalms are in; hardly ever hear a word against sin. Listen to the lector, hear how he reads; Please stop rattlin' them rosary beads... I hope all changes are just about done; That they don't drop Bingo, before I"ve won. (Holy Rosary Bulletin, January 31, 1965).

This is great.
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#36
(08-27-2012, 05:55 PM)m.PR Wrote: It's clear Bp. Lynch does have an agenda. But, it's important to know how those who didn't mind the liturgical reform saw what came before in order to understand what came after and more effectively provide an antidote to it.

Here's a relevant passage from the book The American Catholic Parish, edited by Jay Dolan (this particular part was written by historian Stephen Shaw).
The American Catholic Parish v. II, pp.363-364 Wrote:...many people were unwilling or unable to accept these changes, as the following "lament" from Darlington, Wisconsin, testifies:

Latin's gone, peace is too; singin' and shoutin' from every pew. Altar's turned around, priest is too; Commentators yellin': "Page 22." Communion rail's gone, stand up straight! Kneelin' suddenly went out of date... rosary's out, psalms are in; hardly ever hear a word against sin. Listen to the lector, hear how he reads; Please stop rattlin' them rosary beads... I hope all changes are just about done; That they don't drop Bingo, before I"ve won. (Holy Rosary Bulletin, January 31, 1965).

But in the very next bulletin, a "liberal" had the last laugh, for "Sleep is gone, dozing is, too. Wakeful participation is forced upon you... Communion is a meal, no magic feast. I say 'Amen' at least. I hope the changes are barely begun - because to the living improvement's fun."

It's baffling to me how someone could have accumulated as much toxic as the liberal above expressed.

It's beyond toxic; it sounds heretical to me.
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#37
(08-27-2012, 07:42 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(08-27-2012, 05:55 PM)m.PR Wrote: It's clear Bp. Lynch does have an agenda. But, it's important to know how those who didn't mind the liturgical reform saw what came before in order to understand what came after and more effectively provide an antidote to it.

Here's a relevant passage from the book The American Catholic Parish, edited by Jay Dolan (this particular part was written by historian Stephen Shaw).
The American Catholic Parish v. II, pp.363-364 Wrote:...many people were unwilling or unable to accept these changes, as the following "lament" from Darlington, Wisconsin, testifies:

Latin's gone, peace is too; singin' and shoutin' from every pew. Altar's turned around, priest is too; Commentators yellin': "Page 22." Communion rail's gone, stand up straight! Kneelin' suddenly went out of date... rosary's out, psalms are in; hardly ever hear a word against sin. Listen to the lector, hear how he reads; Please stop rattlin' them rosary beads... I hope all changes are just about done; That they don't drop Bingo, before I"ve won. (Holy Rosary Bulletin, January 31, 1965).

But in the very next bulletin, a "liberal" had the last laugh, for "Sleep is gone, dozing is, too. Wakeful participation is forced upon you... Communion is a meal, no magic feast. I say 'Amen' at least. I hope the changes are barely begun - because to the living improvement's fun."

It's baffling to me how someone could have accumulated as much toxic as the liberal above expressed.

It's beyond toxic; it sounds heretical to me.
It does.

But they don't care, they say they are Catholic and then speak like a Protestant, act like protestants, and spew pure hate for the Church they claim to be a believer in.
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#38
The NO is man focused and by it's very nature open to experimentation, it's hard sometimes to separate the abuse from the 'feature'. Whereas the TLM is God focused and by it's very nature structured and ordered and thus harder to abuse. Just my 2c.
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#39
(08-28-2012, 07:02 AM)symphony8 Wrote: The NO is man focused and by it's very nature open to experimentation, it's hard sometimes to separate the abuse from the 'feature'. Whereas the TLM is God focused and by it's very nature structured and ordered and thus harder to abuse. Just my 2c.

I could say the opposite: Since the TLM is very much detailed and strict in rubrics, there are more rules to be abused. The NO has almost no rubrics, so it's not easy to abuse it.

My 2 cents:  it all depends on the circumstances and the proper intent of the priest. Oh yeah, we love objective criteria of course, and there are a lot of thinks really abusive, but like I said before, the circumstance that a priest had to say Mass to earn his living, is provoking abuse. Which would be the same with the NO Mass if the circumstances are equal.
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#40
In my opinion, it's largely got to do with the formation. Simply because the Roman Mass has more rubrics than the Novus Ordo doesn't mean, necessarily, that there are therefore going to be less abuses at the Roman Mass. Rules don't mean anything to those willing to break them. It's sort of like the gun-control debate in America. The criminals will get the guns, regardless of whether laws are in place. That's the very nature of being a criminal! However, I don't deny that the lack of rubrics and the ambiguity in the instructions, and the ability to pick many options, as also being a cause.

At traditional seminaries the seminarians are taught the traditional, true Catholic faith, and the true meaning of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. They are therefore taught to respect the rubrics and not innovate. At Novus Ordo seminaries however, the seminaries are taught New Theology, especially in regards to the Mass. Some, as I believe Archbishop Lefebvre said, are taught to innovate! Thus, innovations, novelty and abuses are almost inevitable.
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