Liturgical abuse before Vatican II
#41
(08-27-2012, 05:50 PM)Whitey Wrote: Here is a take from a priest now in his 90's. He wrote this in response to allegations of priests mumbling the Latin back in the day.

Quote:I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.

The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?

Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.

My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.

My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.

Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!

Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.


http://www.newoxfordreview.org/letters.j...04-letters
Fr is the reason i fell love with the latin mass

A very holy priest...

God bless Fr. S
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#42
(08-28-2012, 08:06 AM)Edward Wrote:
(08-27-2012, 05:50 PM)Whitey Wrote: Here is a take from a priest now in his 90's. He wrote this in response to allegations of priests mumbling the Latin back in the day.

Quote:I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.

The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?

Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.

My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.

My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.

Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!

Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.


http://www.newoxfordreview.org/letters.j...04-letters
Fr is the reason i fell love with the latin mass

A very holy priest...

God bless Fr. S

Amen. I was inspired simply by reading his letter.
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#43
Does it bother anyone else here when the priest hurries through the Latin prayers? I mean, I have difficulty following along with my missal, since they can speak the Latin more quickly than I can read. And can they really be thinking about the importance of those prayers when they hurry through them? Maybe they can. It just bugs me, though.  :((
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#44
(08-28-2012, 09:54 AM)Meg Wrote: Does it bother anyone else here when the priest hurries through the Latin prayers? I mean, I have difficulty following along with my missal, since they can speak the Latin more quickly than I can read. And can they really be thinking about the importance of those prayers when they hurry through them? Maybe they can. It just bugs me, though.  :((

If I couldn't read the Latin quickly enough to keep up with the priest, I would read the English translation.
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#45
(08-28-2012, 09:54 AM)Meg Wrote: Does it bother anyone else here when the priest hurries through the Latin prayers? I mean, I have difficulty following along with my missal, since they can speak the Latin more quickly than I can read. And can they really be thinking about the importance of those prayers when they hurry through them? Maybe they can. It just bugs me, though.  :((

Are you really talking about when the priest is 'hurrying,' or just when the priest speaks the Latin faster than you can read it, which may just be because he is very familiar with the Latin?

When I pray in Latin it often sounds irreverantly fast to my wife - sometimes perhaps I am rushing, but at other times I think it's just because I am more familiar with Latin than she is that the perception arises.  I also think she speaks Spanish very quickly, and she that I speak English very quickly, but again, that's just the perception that comes about from not being as familiar with the language.
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#46
(08-28-2012, 10:04 AM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(08-28-2012, 09:54 AM)Meg Wrote: Does it bother anyone else here when the priest hurries through the Latin prayers? I mean, I have difficulty following along with my missal, since they can speak the Latin more quickly than I can read. And can they really be thinking about the importance of those prayers when they hurry through them? Maybe they can. It just bugs me, though.  :((

Are you really talking about when the priest is 'hurrying,' or just when the priest speaks the Latin faster than you can read it, which may just be because he is very familiar with the Latin?

When I pray in Latin it often sounds irreverantly fast to my wife - sometimes perhaps I am rushing, but at other times I think it's just because I am more familiar with Latin than she is that the perception arises.  I also think she speaks Spanish very quickly, and she that I speak English very quickly, but again, that's just the perception that comes about from not being as familiar with the language.

This is possible and even probably the case a lot of the time, but I teach college-level Latin and am comfortable with hearing it read, and I have been to many Masses where the priest absolutely blazes through the text, truncating inflectional endings, etc.  I do think this comes close to being an abuse.  We shouldn't be so legalistic that we think that just because something is not listed in De Defectibus that it is not an abuse.  The spirit of the law is important, too.  If the TLM is superior to the NO primarily because the words unambiguously proclaim the Catholic faith, then those words should be respected enough to be said reverently.

That said, the daily NO I went to in college was NEVER longer than 20 minutes, except on a holy day when there happened to be music.  It was usually 12-15 minutes.  If they had omitted letting people add their own intentions - from the pews! - during the prayer of the faithul, they could have done it in under 10.
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#47
(08-28-2012, 10:04 AM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(08-28-2012, 09:54 AM)Meg Wrote: Does it bother anyone else here when the priest hurries through the Latin prayers? I mean, I have difficulty following along with my missal, since they can speak the Latin more quickly than I can read. And can they really be thinking about the importance of those prayers when they hurry through them? Maybe they can. It just bugs me, though.  :((

Are you really talking about when the priest is 'hurrying,' or just when the priest speaks the Latin faster than you can read it, which may just be because he is very familiar with the Latin?

When I pray in Latin it often sounds irreverantly fast to my wife - sometimes perhaps I am rushing, but at other times I think it's just because I am more familiar with Latin than she is that the perception arises.  I also think she speaks Spanish very quickly, and she that I speak English very quickly, but again, that's just the perception that comes about from not being as familiar with the language.

Newyorkcatholic and Jayne,

Sorry, my post looked as if I read along in Latin, but no, I actually read along with the English translation. I can read English pretty fast, but it's amazing that the priests can say the Latin, at times (not all the time, of course)  faster than I can read the English.  I never really thought about it so much until I heard the NO Mass on EWTN one day. A lot of their Mass is said in Latin, and I was struck by how slowly and reverently they said the Latin prayers. Of course this could be mainly due to needed clarity for recording purposes, and also, if the prayers are hurried through in the NO, the Mass would be over with very quickly, because it's so short.
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#48
(08-28-2012, 11:20 AM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(08-28-2012, 10:04 AM)newyorkcatholic Wrote:
(08-28-2012, 09:54 AM)Meg Wrote: Does it bother anyone else here when the priest hurries through the Latin prayers? I mean, I have difficulty following along with my missal, since they can speak the Latin more quickly than I can read. And can they really be thinking about the importance of those prayers when they hurry through them? Maybe they can. It just bugs me, though.  :((

Are you really talking about when the priest is 'hurrying,' or just when the priest speaks the Latin faster than you can read it, which may just be because he is very familiar with the Latin?

When I pray in Latin it often sounds irreverantly fast to my wife - sometimes perhaps I am rushing, but at other times I think it's just because I am more familiar with Latin than she is that the perception arises.  I also think she speaks Spanish very quickly, and she that I speak English very quickly, but again, that's just the perception that comes about from not being as familiar with the language.

This is possible and even probably the case a lot of the time, but I teach college-level Latin and am comfortable with hearing it read, and I have been to many Masses where the priest absolutely blazes through the text, truncating inflectional endings, etc.  I do think this comes close to being an abuse.  We shouldn't be so legalistic that we think that just because something is not listed in De Defectibus that it is not an abuse.  The spirit of the law is important, too.  If the TLM is superior to the NO primarily because the words unambiguously proclaim the Catholic faith, then those words should be respected enough to be said reverently.

That said, the daily NO I went to in college was NEVER longer than 20 minutes, except on a holy day when there happened to be music.  It was usually 12-15 minutes.  If they had omitted letting people add their own intentions - from the pews! - during the prayer of the faithul, they could have done it in under 10.

I agree that it's a problem if the priest blazes through the text, truncating inflectional endings, etc. And I also agree that if the TLM unambiguously proclaims the Catholic faith, that words should be respected reverently. I can understand becoming overly-familiar with the set Latin prayers, since they are in another language, and it might be too easy to say them quickly without thinking about them so much. But still....

I have read that in the old days, before Vll, there were many priests who didn't really care about the Latin Mass at all. I think that this may be one of the reasons why it was changed. Not sure of this is really true at all. But I must concede that at least those who now celebrate the TLM do love it and care about it, even though they may get a bit lax in saying the prayers reverently.
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#49
(08-28-2012, 12:07 PM)Meg Wrote: A lot of [the EWTN] Mass is said in Latin, and I was struck by how slowly and reverently they said the Latin prayers. Of course this could be mainly due to needed clarity for recording purposes, and also, if the prayers are hurried through in the NO, the Mass would be over with very quickly, because it's so short.

Is it necessarily true that saying a prayer more slowly makes it more reverent? 

I'm not saying that is what you are claiming, but it does seem to be what you are implying.  It's something to think about... I don't claim to have an answer to that question.
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#50
(08-28-2012, 12:30 PM)ermy_law Wrote:
(08-28-2012, 12:07 PM)Meg Wrote: A lot of [the EWTN] Mass is said in Latin, and I was struck by how slowly and reverently they said the Latin prayers. Of course this could be mainly due to needed clarity for recording purposes, and also, if the prayers are hurried through in the NO, the Mass would be over with very quickly, because it's so short.

Is it necessarily true that saying a prayer more slowly makes it more reverent? 

I'm not saying that is what you are claiming, but it does seem to be what you are implying.  It's something to think about... I don't claim to have an answer to that question.

You raise a good point. Maybe prayers don't need to be said slowly in order to be reverent. I dunno.  :scratchinghead:  I equate slowness with reverence, but it may just be my perception, which may not be the case for others.
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