Liturgical abuse before Vatican II
#51
(08-28-2012, 12:42 PM)Meg Wrote:
(08-28-2012, 12:30 PM)ermy_law Wrote:
(08-28-2012, 12:07 PM)Meg Wrote: A lot of [the EWTN] Mass is said in Latin, and I was struck by how slowly and reverently they said the Latin prayers. Of course this could be mainly due to needed clarity for recording purposes, and also, if the prayers are hurried through in the NO, the Mass would be over with very quickly, because it's so short.

Is it necessarily true that saying a prayer more slowly makes it more reverent? 

I'm not saying that is what you are claiming, but it does seem to be what you are implying.  It's something to think about... I don't claim to have an answer to that question.

You raise a good point. Maybe prayers don't need to be said slowly in order to be reverent. I dunno.  :scratchinghead:  I equate slowness with reverence, but it may just be my perception, which may not be the case for others.

Slower than too fast is good.  But too slow is not good.

Prayers could be said very slowly, so as to be affected or dramatic, and this is not reverent.
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#52
(08-28-2012, 07:41 AM)TraditionalistThomas Wrote: In my opinion, it's largely got to do with the formation. Simply because the Roman Mass has more rubrics than the Novus Ordo doesn't mean, necessarily, that there are therefore going to be less abuses at the Roman Mass. Rules don't mean anything to those willing to break them. It's sort of like the gun-control debate in America. The criminals will get the guns, regardless of whether laws are in place. That's the very nature of being a criminal! However, I don't deny that the lack of rubrics and the ambiguity in the instructions, and the ability to pick many options, as also being a cause.

At traditional seminaries the seminarians are taught the traditional, true Catholic faith, and the true meaning of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. They are therefore taught to respect the rubrics and not innovate. At Novus Ordo seminaries however, the seminaries are taught New Theology, especially in regards to the Mass. Some, as I believe Archbishop Lefebvre said, are taught to innovate! Thus, innovations, novelty and abuses are almost inevitable.

I thought this topic was about abuse before V2 and not another NO-bashing-topic or judging the ordinary seminaries from hearsay (I suppose) and chararcterizing them as 'Novus Ordo seminaries' is not too accurate of course.

I was at such seminaries, and I can tell you that the way liturgy was taught, was very strict. And btw also in seminaries where they normally celebrate the OF, it's possible to celebrate the EF. In the seminary of my own diocese, there is every week an EF Mass in the chapel, the vast majority of the seminarians regularly attend an EF Mass and loves it. Last year one of my parishioners was ordained for the diocese, he is not (yet) celebrating the EF, but I don't expect him to accept any liturgical abuse, on the contrary... This year another young man enters the diocesan seminary from my parish, and you know what? He is serving our EF parish Mass perfectly! Esp. since SP, I can tell you that at least in my diocese there is no gap between OF and EF Mass in the seminary. One of the recently ordained priests did one of his first solemn Mass in the FSSP church, and do you think any of the diocesan or seminary staff objects?

The abuse of the OF Mass in our diocese comes merely from the generation who was in the seminaries before V2. They were taught well, ordained with the traditional rite, and still they made the weirdest experiments. Oh and these priests are most opposed to the tendency among the restored seminaries to promote the EF of Mass like in our diocese. The only 'younger generation' priests who also fall for the abusive celebration of the OF Mass, are those who got infected by the liberal virus of the clergy ordained before the big changes...  When I was ordained almost 20 years ago, I had to fight the temptation of the so called 'older generations' of priests, to make my own liturgy.

Of course there are still liberal seminaries in the world, but in the 'most liberal country' in the Catholic world (haha), the Netherlands, you will not find those anymore!

And it's one of the myths created by the anti-V2-lobby, that the new seminaries are that bad. It's ignoring the historical fact that the great liturgical revolution did not start in the new seminaries, but in the old. The pre-V2 generation of the clergy initiated it, not ours. Those who knew the value of the traditional liturgy, threw the treasure away voluntarily, and now the younger generations of priests are digging it up again, to restore what our predecessors burried.

And thát is also what our old Pope Benedict knows and makes possible.
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#53
(08-28-2012, 04:11 PM)kingofspades Wrote: The abuse of the OF Mass in our diocese comes merely from the generation who was in the seminaries before V2. They were taught well, ordained with the traditional rite, and still they made the weirdest experiments. Oh and these priests are most opposed to the tendency among the restored seminaries to promote the EF of Mass like in our diocese. The only 'younger generation' priests who also fall for the abusive celebration of the OF Mass, are those who got infected by the liberal virus of the clergy ordained before the big changes...  When I was ordained almost 20 years ago, I had to fight the temptation of the so called 'older generations' of priests, to make my own liturgy.

This is what I have observed to.  There was this period, mainly in the 70s and 80s when liturgical experimentation was in fashion.  And it can't be explained by  "Novus Ordo seminary" formation since many of these priests were originally trained to say the TLM.  Although something they might have picked up at seminary is an over-valuing of "experts".  This attitude ran throughout secular and religious life in these years.  Many people put advice from experts over tradition and even.common sense.
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#54
(08-28-2012, 02:28 PM)newyorkcatholic Wrote: Slower than too fast is good.  But too slow is not good.

Prayers could be said very slowly, so as to be affected or dramatic, and this is not reverent.

Absolutely.  The issue, I think, is whether the prayers are said intelligibly.  Latin becomes hard to understand if the endings are not said clearly, but obviously a laborious and halting delivery is not good either.
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#55
(08-28-2012, 08:06 AM)Edward Wrote:
(08-27-2012, 05:50 PM)Whitey Wrote: Here is a take from a priest now in his 90's. He wrote this in response to allegations of priests mumbling the Latin back in the day.

Quote:I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.

The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?

Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.

My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.

My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.

Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!

Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.


http://www.newoxfordreview.org/letters.j...04-letters
Fr is the reason i fell love with the latin mass

A very holy priest...

God bless Fr. S

He's a Saint. I love him dearly and he's in my prayers often.
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