Original transliteration of Fatima statements?
#31
(09-07-2012, 04:18 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote:
(09-07-2012, 03:19 PM)SaintSebastian Wrote: Most people in the world weren't Catholic at that time. What is defined as the "sins of the flesh"? Is it a narrower category than the "works of the flesh" listed in Galatians (and contrasted to the fruits of the Spirit) or do they mean the same thing?

I'm not sure if they would mean the same thing in this context because if we interpreted "sins of the flesh" as anything juxtaposed to the fruits of the Spirit, such as ignorance or obstinacy of Baptism (which is the infallible reason why most souls goto Hell, lacking the indelible mark of Baptism), then we should read this as "most souls got Hell because they do not conform to the Spirit." But this is blatantly obvious through Scripture, therefore it is a waste of words in revelation or a simple misinterpretation, which is why most interpret this as sin of lust. But most got Hell because they are not Baptized, ergo the statement is in error or alluding to a mystery interpretation. If we say most got Hell because a mortal sin, then we say lack of Baptism is not the principle reason why persons got Hell and leaves it open to state that there is salvation outside Church, which is heresy.

I think we could surmise that people may be damned for more than one sin (I would guess this is the case among many of the damned), so the Fatima message could be interpreted that sins of the flesh are most often the mortal sin the damned die in, but that does not exclude them from dying in other mortal sins or original sin alongside the sins of the flesh. To say most people are damned for lack of baptism is merely saying most people are damned for not having their sins forgiven, without referring to any particular sin (actual or original) that someone is actually damned for. The Fatima message would still also be true in the sense that it is referring to the most common  kind of unremitted sin.

if your premise is that original sin is the most common cause of damnation, I think the Fatima message could still be true.

In the Fatima message, I think "Hell" is probably being used in the more colloquial sense, which would exclude limbo and therefore those who die in original sin alone(even though limbo is techically just a degree of damnation--John XXII (Dz 493) and the Council of Florence teach that those who die in original sin only go to "hell."). 

I think the Fatima message could therefore refer to the actual torments of Hell, like what  Innocent III wrote (Dz. 410): "The punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell. . . ."

Sure, those who have not had original sin cleansed are not saved, but to go to Hell in (the colloquial sense) and not limbo, one requires actual sins. Therefore, excluding all those that die in original sin only, some category of  mortal sins could be rightly said to be the most common cause of a soul going to Hell (as one person may have many causes).


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#32
Also, while the unbaptized go to hell certainly.  It is possible that they remained unbaptized because they were obstinate in sin and refused the grace of conversion.  It is likely that they otherwise would have become Catholic.  So the statement would still be true, even if it is including the unbaptized; because they were never baptized on account of the penalty for their obstinacy in sins of the flesh.
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#33
(09-11-2012, 12:24 AM)Peter Gabriel Wrote: Also, while the unbaptized go to hell certainly.  It is possible that they remained unbaptized because they were obstinate in sin and refused the grace of conversion.  It is likely that they otherwise would have become Catholic.  So the statement would still be true, even if it is including the unbaptized; because they were never baptized on account of the penalty for their obstinacy in sins of the flesh.

The unbaptized who have not committed any mortal sin don't go to the hell of the damned.  Are you referring to children below the age of reason? 

As for the sins of the flesh, lust is not the only reason souls go to hell.  Gluttony and pride are sins of the flesh.  Might as well mention all seven deadly sins as sins of the flesh.  This is known as concupiscence of the senses.
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