Cardinal Criticizes Priets
#31
(09-10-2012, 05:40 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote: There's actually no obligation to choose a saint's name, it's only recommended. The Catholic Encyclopedia has an interesting tidbit here:

Catholic Encyclopedia, Christian Name Wrote:But while various Fathers and spiritual writers, and here and there a synodal decree, have exhorted the faithful to give no names to their children in baptism but those of canonized saints or of the angels of God, it must be confessed that there has never been a time in the history of the Church when these injunctions have been at all strictly attended to...

Thank you for that. I'll be sure to keep it mind next time this topic comes up  Grin
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#32
(09-10-2012, 05:25 PM)m.PR Wrote: But when a child (or adult for that matter) is baptized, he does enter a community, that is, the Church. The people who say that is all it's about and who deny Original Sin are wrong, of course, but we have to be careful to not veer in the opposite direction.

...

Yes, I agree.
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#33
The Church baptizes children of parents who request baptism in the vast majority of cases. The rite is valid and licit, and you have to be dumb as bricks not to understand what it says. It is the sin of parents to present their children to baptism and falsely vow before God to raise the children in the Faith. For a priest to alter those words in some way to destroy the notion of their responsibility would be a grave sin in my mind. Inasmuch as they receive bad catechesis so that they think they are doing a good job, but they're not, that falls to both sides. People need to read and study. The priests need to be faithful to Christ and present the Faith in its integrity. I know because I was one of these children.

From the new rite of baptism Wrote:You have asked to have your child baptized. In doing so you are accepting the responsibility of training him (her) in the practice of the faith. It will be your duty to bring him (her) up to keep God's commandments as Christ taught us, by loving God and our neighbor. Do you clearly understand what you are undertaking?

Parents: We do.

...

Priest: The God of power and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has freed you from sin and brought you to new life through water and the Holy Spirit. He now anoints you with the chrism of salvation, so that, united with his people, you may remain for ever a member of Christ who is Priest, Prophet and King.

All: Amen

Not to mention the renunciations and profession of Faith. Either people are dumber than bricks, purposely misrepresenting themselves at the ceremony, or they are completely deluded. Or all of the above. Pray and do penance!
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#34
(09-10-2012, 01:42 PM)traditionalmom Wrote: Sounds like alot of the NO churches are turning Anglican.  Shocked

Don't insult us Anglicans by comparing us to "those people"!  LOL

Some of us are actually sane!  (And some of us are, ahem, more orthodox than most of the American NO Church...    Sticking tongue out at you
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#35
[quote='m.PR' pid='1072891' dateline='1347312317']

By the way, does every thread here have to turn into an NO-bashfest? Seriously. The only one talking sense here is Father.

[quote='traditionalmom' pid='1072777' dateline='1347298931']

Probably because most have close family and friends they love dearly that have left the faith in unprecedented numbers since the '70s.  I know, I know, they'll all be saved. 
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#36
(09-10-2012, 07:08 PM)onosurf Wrote: [quote='m.PR' pid='1072891' dateline='1347312317']

By the way, does every thread here have to turn into an NO-bashfest? Seriously. The only one talking sense here is Father.

[quote='traditionalmom' pid='1072777' dateline='1347298931']

Probably because most have close family and friends they love dearly that have left the faith in unprecedented numbers since the '70s.  I know, I know, they'll all be saved. 





Uh I never made that quote I'm not sure who did but it wasn't me...  Huh?





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#37
Oops...that was me.  Blush

Sorry. 
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#38
(09-10-2012, 06:16 AM)ggreg Wrote: I'm surprised that any Catholic priests do refuse to baptise such children.  I can't understand why they would.

I think they should be baptised, but the priest needs to make sure that the mother intends to raise them with at least an effort of giving them the faith.  Otherwise you're making a mockery of the sacrament.

In the spring of 2005, I had to attend a "baptism course" at my local Novus Ordo Parish as my second son was being baptised by Father Hugh Thwaites (who recently died).  We were borrowing the Church and font to do it properly with a Traditional Rite and my newborn son was going into the parish registry so I had to attend as part of the bureaucracy.  The course was 2 hours per week for 4 weeks.  That surprised me. so I went along hoping (against hope) that the course would be about parents taking baptism more seriously and a chance to re-catechize (or more accurately catechize the parents), who were about as ignorant about the faith as it was possible to be.  My guts told me I was being a naive optimist, but my head said, "why would they need 8 hours to spew their wishy-washy bullshit at people".

Yes, thank you for making what w/have been a dull affair into something interesting  and also helping some of the people learn something substantive.

My guts were correct, it turned out to be a total joke.  The priest just sat there talking bollocks for the entire two hours and convincing the parents that baptism was nothing more than a funny little ceremony to invite aunty Nora and uncle Tommy to and then get pissed afterwards.

The names of the other children being baptised were things like, Chelsea, Jason, Darren, Cookie, Mason etc etc.  Of 20 couples I think half were not married and only 2 had Christian names.  Nobody was named after a saint.  Three were named after professional soccer players and Chelsea after the entire London team.

The priest asked the audience what baptism was about and why we were all here, why have children baptised at all and the other parents sheepishly looked at their feet, embarassed to answer, so I thought I'd step up to the plate first.   Mr. Winky

My wife gave me a wry smile and thought, "oh shit this is where the fireworks start".

Baptism Father is a Sacrament, where the Original Sin which all mankind suffers from at conception, due to the sin of our first parents Adam and Eve, is forgiven and the Holy Spirit enters into us and gives special graces to resist evils and temptations during our lives.  Without Baptism we cannot enter into Heaven when we die.  We baptise babies because while they are not guilty of actual sins, they are stained with original sin, by nature of being related to Adam and Eve".

Well, Father Bob, said.  "Original Sin, well that's a rather old fashioned answer and the Church does not think of it like that anymore".  Anyone else?

"To give the baby a name Father?", said one of the parents.

"Yes, that's more like it, what I was looking for was to 'welcome the new young life into our Community'.  Baptism is really all about welcoming and saying thanks to God that they can be part of this great family of ours".

God help me, I had to endure another 3 weeks of this utter shit.  At the end of the second week he told me that I didn't need to come anymore because it was clear I "knew enough" about baptism.

Rest assured, for four hours, I made this priest's life a living hell with all the arguments and clarifications I raised.  I also taught the audience a thing or two about baptism, mortal sin, the ten commandments.  One of the dads came up to me in the tea break and said, "I thought this would be dead boring, but you've really livened it up".

And that my friends is the sorry state of many parishes throughout Europe and North America I dare say.  So when people tell me it is the same religion, I have a struggle to believe it.
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#39
(09-10-2012, 06:10 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: The Church baptizes children of parents who request baptism in the vast majority of cases. The rite is valid and licit, and you have to be dumb as bricks not to understand what it says. It is the sin of parents to present their children to baptism and falsely vow before God to raise the children in the Faith. For a priest to alter those words in some way to destroy the notion of their responsibility would be a grave sin in my mind. Inasmuch as they receive bad catechesis so that they think they are doing a good job, but they're not, that falls to both sides. People need to read and study. The priests need to be faithful to Christ and present the Faith in its integrity. I know because I was one of these children.

From the new rite of baptism Wrote:You have asked to have your child baptized. In doing so you are accepting the responsibility of training him (her) in the practice of the faith. It will be your duty to bring him (her) up to keep God's commandments as Christ taught us, by loving God and our neighbor. Do you clearly understand what you are undertaking?

Parents: We do.

...

Priest: The God of power and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has freed you from sin and brought you to new life through water and the Holy Spirit. He now anoints you with the chrism of salvation, so that, united with his people, you may remain for ever a member of Christ who is Priest, Prophet and King.

All: Amen

Not to mention the renunciations and profession of Faith. Either people are dumber than bricks, purposely misrepresenting themselves at the ceremony, or they are completely deluded. Or all of the above. Pray and do penance!
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#40
(09-10-2012, 01:08 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: The website Catholic Match has 7 issues that they ask members to yay or nay. Basic things like "Do you agree with the Church's teaching on: papal infallibility, transubstantiation, the assumption, abortion, contraception, etc.

I wonder how many pew sitters at the local Novus Ordo could affirm all of these.

Yeah members of Catholic Match are asked if they accept the Church's teaching on these 7 questions; Eucharist, Contraception, Sanctity of Life, Papal Infallibility, Premarital Sex, Immaculate Conception and Holy Orders.  I've been amazed at the amount of Catholics that do not accept the Church's teaching on all 7.  I don't think there are many trads that are members of Catholic Match.
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