Traditional Catholic love and loyalty toward the Pope
#31
Quote:I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, successor of St. Peter, the prince of the apostles and vicar of Jesus Christ.

Amen. I remember the Holy Father daily in my morning offering intentions.

I don't always agree with him; in fact sometimes I find things he says or does to be downright troubling. But very few of us can find sainthood the way that St. Catherine of Siena did.  Most saints are formed by obedience to the proper spiritual authorities even when it seems unjust. The pope is pope and has his authority under the providential hand of God.

And on a purely personal level, who can resist a charming, grandfatherly Bavarian?  :grin:
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#32
(09-15-2012, 07:39 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(09-15-2012, 06:56 PM)joe17 Wrote: As one who does not recognise today's Vatican,  I do not hate the man. 

In a way, I have less difficulty dealing with people who openly deny that Benedict is pope.  It is at least consistent that they not give him the respect due his office.  This is less disturbing than people who acknowledge that he is pope consistently writing of him in such a bitter way.

I do know that you're not singling anyone out, but I have to tell you that it's extremely difficult to reconcile what passed as Catholic doctrine on the eve of the Council and what Pope Benedict has taught (pre- and post-election).  As a Catholic, I believe in the papacy, but I find it hard to see a cleric dance around doctrine without any consequences (e.g. ecclesiology, ecumenism, religious liberty).  I'm not looking for debate on the issue, but let me be clear that I DO NOT hate the man.  I sincerely hope that he's saved.
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#33
I don't know about Adeodatus' Holy Father (whatever that means), but I would assume I'm one of the folks who you all think constantly bashes on the pope.  Let us recall, however, that our final obedience is to the papacy itself and not any individual pope.

At any rate, I pray for the Holy Father.  I am willing to always submit to him in any matter that isn't obviously contradictory with previous teaching.  I pray for him every Sunday at Mass, ask the Lord to keep him from the wolves, to give him strength, etc.

I suppose that for many of you this isn't enough?  How do you make the judgment when one loves the Holy Father enough?  Is it when my profile picture is Pope Benedict or when I tell people they should be put to death if they disagree with some of his actions?

Did the saints who rebuked popes not love the papacy?  Was St. Paul a Protestant bound to hell for challenging St. Peter to his face?

I mean, seriously.  Not everyone who disagrees with Pope Benedict on the forum gets accused of hating him.  How do you make the decision?
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#34
(09-15-2012, 10:36 PM)Walty Wrote: I don't know about Adeodatus' Holy Father (whatever that means), but I would assume I'm one of the folks who you all think constantly bashes on the pope.  Let us recall, however, that our final obedience is to the papacy itself and not any individual pope.

At any rate, I pray for the Holy Father.  I am willing to always submit to him in any matter that isn't obviously contradictory with previous teaching.  I pray for him every Sunday at Mass, ask the Lord to keep him from the wolves, to give him strength, etc.

I suppose that for many of you this isn't enough?  How do you make the judgment when one loves the Holy Father enough?  Is it when my profile picture is Pope Benedict or when I tell people they should be put to death if they disagree with some of his actions?

Did the saints who rebuked popes not love the papacy?  Was St. Paul a Protestant bound to hell for challenging St. Peter to his face?

I mean, seriously.  Not everyone who disagrees with Pope Benedict on the forum gets accused of hating him.  How do you make the decision?

Oh, I'm not too sure about that.  I think those who make habits of accusing people of hating or bashing or attacking the pope do it any time someone points out a problem with something he said.

The way I see it, a person who would say that disagreeing with the Holy Father is hating him or bashing him, they're really just doing that to help preserve the construct they've created-- mainly, that BXVI is some sort of crusader for Tradition and is doing everything in his power to restore the sacraments and the faith.

See, it's a really fragile construct because reality proves it totally false.  But it's a construct with a huge emotional investment, so anytime anyone gets anywhere near this house of cards, the owner fires a warning shot and then shoots to kill. 


More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#35
(09-15-2012, 10:45 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: Oh, I'm not too sure about that.  I think those who make habits of accusing people of hating or bashing or attacking the pope do it any time someone points out a problem with something he said.

The way I see it, a person who would say that disagreeing with the Holy Father is hating him or bashing him, they're really just doing that to help preserve the construct they've created-- mainly, that BXVI is some sort of crusader for Tradition and is doing everything in his power to restore the sacraments and the faith.

See, it's a really fragile construct because reality proves it totally false.  But it's a construct with a huge emotional investment, so anytime anyone gets anywhere near this house of cards, the owner fires a warning shot and then shoots to kill. 

I agree.
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#36
(09-15-2012, 10:45 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: See, it's a really fragile construct because reality proves it totally false.  But it's a construct with a huge emotional investment, so anytime anyone gets anywhere near this house of cards, the owner fires a warning shot and then shoots to kill. 

Haha.  Emotional investment??  I mean, people keep telling me I'm going to hell and that I should be killed by the sword for heresy, but I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's emotional.
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#37
(09-15-2012, 10:36 PM)Walty Wrote: I mean, seriously.  Not everyone who disagrees with Pope Benedict on the forum gets accused of hating him.  How do you make the decision?

By the tone. Name-calling, expressions that show disrespect or sassiness, the verbal equivalent of eye-rolling or a twisting index finger to the temple, etc. It's pretty easy to spot if you replace references to Benedict XVI with someone -- anyone - you love (try your earthly father, your mom, your wife, your kid, yourself, etc.) If you wouldn't want someone talking to/about any of them in a given way, then that way should be avoided when referring to our Holy Father.
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#38
(09-15-2012, 11:32 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(09-15-2012, 10:36 PM)Walty Wrote: I mean, seriously.  Not everyone who disagrees with Pope Benedict on the forum gets accused of hating him.  How do you make the decision?

By the tone. Name-calling, expressions that show disrespect or sassiness, the verbal equivalent of eye-rolling or a twisting index finger to the temple, etc. It's pretty easy to spot if you replace references to Benedict XVI with someone -- anyone - you love (try your earthly father, your mom, your wife, your kid, yourself, etc.) If you wouldn't want someone talking to/about any of them in a given way, then that way should be avoided when referring to our Holy Father.

This just goes back to emotional investment, though.  If someone told me someone I loved was doing something wrong or suspect, I wouldn't blindly ally myself with my loved one.  At least, I hope I wouldn't.  Because that wouldn't be right.  The truth has to prevail. 
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#39
(09-15-2012, 11:32 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(09-15-2012, 10:36 PM)Walty Wrote: I mean, seriously.  Not everyone who disagrees with Pope Benedict on the forum gets accused of hating him.  How do you make the decision?

By the tone. Name-calling, expressions that show disrespect or sassiness, the verbal equivalent of eye-rolling or a twisting index finger to the temple, etc. It's pretty easy to spot if you replace references to Benedict XVI with someone -- anyone - you love (try your earthly father, your mom, your wife, your kid, yourself, etc.) If you wouldn't want someone talking to/about any of them in a given way, then that way should be avoided when referring to our Holy Father.

So, what if one denigrates a person's fatherly capabilities and says a good Catholic is leading people to Hell?

Is that cool? 
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#40
(09-15-2012, 11:41 PM)Mithrandylan Wrote: This just goes back to emotional investment, though.  If someone told me someone I loved was doing something wrong or suspect, I wouldn't blindly ally myself with my loved one.  At least, I hope I wouldn't.  Because that wouldn't be right.  The truth has to prevail. 

You don't have to "blindly" think anything, and you can have respect for someone while disagreeing with him about something or while thinking that something he's doing is wrong or imprudent or whatever.
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