Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren
(10-03-2012, 01:00 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Scriptorium,
No offense to you, but I knew someone was going to make the post you just made: "It's better and more effective to be positive than it is to be negative."  The question, however, lies in which period, the 50 years before Vatican II (with its "negative" approach) or the 50 years after Vatican II (with its "positive" approach), has produced more converts to the Catholic Chrch.  And again, it is not enough to tell non-Catholics that the Church has the "fullness of the faith," but they must also -- out of charity -- be warned of their objectively dire situation.  Being positive will certainly work for some, but stressing the negative ("there's no hope for those who die outside the Church") will also work for others, as it did long before Vatican II.

The question is a multifaceted one. I don't think the two periods can be compared to each other, because I think they are not the same on so many levels. Nor can the crisis of the post-VII era simply be laid at the foot of the Council or the changes in the liturgy. Did St. Pius X deal with the pill? Did he deal with massive world war? How about mass/instant communication. Etc. Etc. Europe was hemorrhaging then as it is now. It's just people dressed nicely and still observed a modicum of European manners and decorum. The Church shows statistically to be rather steady (slightly up) in proportion to the world population since 1910 (about 17.5%). We, however, can't go back and reemerge from Europe. There has been an enormous shift in the Catholic population from Europe and into the world, particularly in Africa. This can never be "recreated" to compare pre-VII data to post-VII data, so really the two periods are not equivalent to be compared. The Church in Her wisdom shifted Her methods of evangelization because the conditions of the world demanded them, and was naturally in place in the men anointed with the papacy and the episcopate (sort of a critical mass sanctioned through the Church in the Council). I am not discounting "tough love", but I think there are few circumstances in which that is the best or first method of approach, especially in these general teachings and pronouncements of the Pope. People of today don't give a hooey about their "objectively dire state". That horse has already run out of the stall long ago. It's seeds were planted long before Vatican II. The Church realizes She is not speaking to the same types of people. We can realize this too as traditionalists, and adapt our methods. Not one iota of truth needs to be compromised, but it is wise to take into account the conditions of the other when evangelizing. It's just facing facts. At the least one can understand where they are coming from.

(10-03-2012, 01:00 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Vatican II sent a mixed message, by stating that the Holy Spirit uses false sects as means of salvation, and that illicit celebrations of the sacraments somehow build up the Church of God.  The objective gravity of being outside the Holy Catholic Church loses all meaning when it's affirmed that men can be saved in false sects (but through the Church).

We're just admitting to the well known fact that God's power is not limited to the visible boundaries of the Church. An omnipotent God defies our boxes. A widened view of His power is now emphasized in the Church's teaching to show how She is truly a universal Church.

(10-03-2012, 01:00 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: P.P.S. -- Jesus Himself did not simply say, "Blessed are they..." (St. Matt., V), but He also said, "Woe to you..." (St. Luke, VI).

His Spirit still speaks through the Church. He is still guiding us. Woe to the man who sows seeds of doubt and contempt in the world concerning His Church.

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - by Scriptorium - 10-03-2012, 02:29 PM

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